Worth Paying for one more rotation?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Paladin, Jun 20, 2011.

  1. Paladin

    News Guest

    Good luck on a stagger-shod BMW.


     
    News, Jun 21, 2011
    #21
  2. ....and let's not forget, turning involves a "stopping" vector...now the
    question becomes, are Honda owners screwing themselves on THAT basis if
    they make the car turn BETTER?

    'Cuz, Honda designs serious understeer into their cars, on the basis
    that it's better than having the car oversteer. I'm not saying that any
    Honda will oversteer necessarily, but people are used to Hondas
    scrubbing their front tires toward the guardrail as they take that
    cloverleaf too fast. Better grip does change that behavior to some
    extent...

    (I presume the S2000 is the exception to this rule--I presume one can
    kick the tail out pretty easily?)
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, Jun 22, 2011
    #22
  3. Paladin

    jim beam Guest

    it does indeed. i have a set of michelin pilots on one civic and
    standard tires on another. the pilots definitely push that thing around
    the bends better.

    but i don't think "screwing" is the right way to look at it. all you
    get si slightly less understeer, you don't eliminate it by any means.

    that's something i'll never be able to try unfortunately - too tall and
    simply cannot fit behind the wheel. :(
     
    jim beam, Jun 22, 2011
    #23
  4. Paladin

    jim beam Guest

    i don't think you're reacting enough. rotation is an anachronistic
    dogma left over from the days of bias ply - just like 3k mile oil changes.
     
    jim beam, Jun 22, 2011
    #24
  5. Paladin

    Bluto Guest

    Beg to differ sir.

    ABS is great but you still need driver skill and competence to control the
    car in an emergency braking situation. During the winter, there is at least
    one news story about drivers in emergency situations, loosing control and
    finding ditches alongside the road.

    "jim beam" wrote in message

    b.s. bmw's break if you actually /do/ drive them hard. ask my buddy
    with the m3 and three new subframes.

    the factor common to all drivers, irrespective of "inexperience" or
    "incompetence" is emergency braking. and with abs control, driver
    competence is simply not a factor.
     
    Bluto, Jun 22, 2011
    #25
  6. That's because no amount of control can change the physics of "you were
    going way too fast for conditions".

    That Jackass guy got burned to a toasty crisp because you can't make a
    sudden 45 degree turn even in a Porsche when it's going 110mph, I don't
    care what the ABS says.

    Turning means stopping, and if stopping is limited, so is turning--and
    if you're going WAY too fast on the slick stuff, you may be turning at
    the limits of your adhesion to the road--but if the forward vector is
    WAY longer than the sideways vector, you're going to end up in the ditch.

    AWD, 4WD--no, morons, it doesn't mean you can stop/turn any better than
    anyone else.
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, Jun 22, 2011
    #26
  7. Paladin

    jim beam Guest


    ass posting is a real pain in the top - please don't.


    as elmo says, abs can't help you outperform available traction. but it
    can help my grandmother effectively /stop/ standing on the brake long
    after she's starting to slide and thus retain some chance of control.

    why the government sees fit to save the incapable from themselves with
    things like abs is something you need to take up with your
    representatives [but if you actually want to be heard, be prepared to
    hand over the same or more then the oilco lobbyists who encourage
    anything that adds to a vehicles weight and/or fuel consumption].
     
    jim beam, Jun 23, 2011
    #27
  8. Paladin

    Bluto Guest

    Mr. Beam, my posts are on the top when I reply, don't know what the
    newsgroup does after. Guess I don't post enough to be an expert like you
    are. Oh well, we all can't be experts.


    ass posting is a real pain in the top - please don't.


    as elmo says, abs can't help you outperform available traction. but it
    can help my grandmother effectively /stop/ standing on the brake long
    after she's starting to slide and thus retain some chance of control.

    why the government sees fit to save the incapable from themselves with
    things like abs is something you need to take up with your
    representatives [but if you actually want to be heard, be prepared to
    hand over the same or more then the oilco lobbyists who encourage
    anything that adds to a vehicles weight and/or fuel consumption].
     
    Bluto, Jun 23, 2011
    #28
  9. Paladin

    Tegger Guest



    The "group" does nothing to your post. Top- or bottom-posting is
    established by the poster.



    If you want to scold people on how to post, you should at least learn how
    to separate quoted text from your reply. Without some sort of separation,
    it's difficult to know where your reply ends and the quoted text begins.

    And, as a Usenetter since about 1999, I can tell you that Usenet is
    traditionally a bottom-posting milieu.
     
    Tegger, Jun 23, 2011
    #29
  10. Paladin

    Al Guest


    This thread raises some questions in my mind:

    1. About how many miles might it take a 'rotated' tire wear off its
    high spots and regain full contact? I imagine it would be about the
    same as the miles it takes a brand new tire to achieve full contact?

    2. If you paid $20. to have the tires rotated every 10,000 miles, you
    would have invested $100. by 50,000 miles (about the price of a new
    tire). Is is reasonable to expect rotations to extend the life of a set
    of tires by 25%? I agree with beam's point about averaging the wear,
    and even increasing it by having to wear off the high spots each time.
    Of course many posters on this group do it themselves so only their time
    is involved, but many others probably pay $40. or more for a rotation,
    and many do 5,000 or 7,500 miles intervals.

    3. How does front to back rotation vs cross rotation affect the
    "contact" discussion?

    4. I usually find that I don't like the feel of a car after rotation,
    but I like to buy my tires 4 at a time rather than 2 at a time, which is
    often what happens if you never rotate. What works for me is rotate
    only once when the most worn tire appears to be at 50% and I do it front
    to back (no cross).
     
    Al, Jun 23, 2011
    #30
  11. Paladin

    jim beam Guest

    it's more because it has to wear back to flat, then go past that to the
    new profile.

    if you really want to rotate, the "least negative" impact you can have
    is to keep each rubber block comparatively flat, like a new tire. but
    to keep that, you'll have to rotate every few hundred miles.

    depends on the car. some vehicles are fundamentally awful, and no
    amount of alignment or realignment seems to help them. in that case, i
    doubt rotation has any serious negative effects. but for a good vehicle
    with 4-wheel independent suspension, particularly those with multi-link
    rears, the front/rear wear patterns are completely different, thus the
    contact patches are completely different and rotation can have a
    substantial negative effect.

    we've been discussing the reason for that! it's worst when crossing
    side to side.

    i'm a fwd guy with same size front/rear, so i replace by axle - my
    fronts always go first. when i replace them, the new ones always go on
    the rear. then i'll brutalize the tires for a bit to make sure the
    "new" fronts wear in as quickly as possible to restore maximum braking
    again.
     
    jim beam, Jun 23, 2011
    #31
  12. Ah--every oil change, then.

    ;-)

    ....thus preserving the understeer characteristics designed into the car.
     
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, Jun 23, 2011
    #32
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