What about these gifts to Toyota

[Tim]

I don't think this is a loan, is it? It is giving Toyota the money to pay these workers wages for 7 or 8 years, from the taxpayer and workers themselves. This is what has to stop.

http://www.leadercall.com/opinion/local_story_062191838.html/resources_printstory

The strange thing is we will never know whether the huge subsidy of the Tupelo Toyota plant is good or bad for Mississippi. We know the direct subsidy is $350 million right off the bat. That’s the amount Mississippi will borrow to aid the Toyota plant. State officials have yet to disclose the amount of future tax breaks. If the Nissan plant is a guide, the total subsidy will be about a half billion dollars. That’s a big chunk of change for 2,000 guaranteed jobs. State officials are already hinting the final job number may be close to 4,000 but that’s wishful thinking. Since auto companies have been able to effectively sell jobs, it’s doubtful they will deliver any more than their contractual obligation. So let’s look at the math: a half billion divided by 2,000. That comes to a whopping $250,000 per job....

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

I don't think this is a loan, is it? It is giving Toyota the money to pay these workers wages for 7 or 8 years, from the taxpayer and workers themselves. This is what has to stop.

http://www.leadercall.com/opinion/local_story_062191838.html/resources_printstory

The strange thing is we will never know whether the huge subsidy of the Tupelo Toyota plant is good or bad for Mississippi. We know the direct subsidy is $350 million right off the bat. That's the amount Mississippi will borrow to aid the Toyota plant. State officials have yet to disclose the amount of future tax breaks. If the Nissan plant is a guide, the total subsidy will be about a half billion dollars. That's a big chunk of change for 2,000 guaranteed jobs. State officials are already hinting the final job number may be close to 4,000 but that's wishful thinking. Since auto companies have been able to effectively sell jobs, it's doubtful they will deliver any more than their contractual obligation. So let's look at the math: a half billion divided by 2,000. That comes to a whopping $250,000 per job....

Capitalists are the biggest fans of socialism, and state laws against subsidizing businesses have never prevented any handouts to them.

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

I don't think this is a loan, is it? It is giving Toyota the money to pay these workers wages for 7 or 8 years, from the taxpayer and workers themselves. This is what has to stop.

http://www.leadercall.com/opinion/local_story_062191838.html/resources_printstory

The strange thing is we will never know whether the huge subsidy of the Tupelo Toyota plant is good or bad for Mississippi. We know the direct subsidy is $350 million right off the bat. That’s the amount Mississippi will borrow to aid the Toyota plant. State officials have yet to disclose the amount of future tax breaks. If the Nissan plant is a guide, the total subsidy will be about a half billion dollars. That’s a big chunk of change for 2,000 guaranteed jobs. State officials are already hinting the final job number may be close to 4,000 but that’s wishful thinking. Since auto companies have been able to effectively sell jobs, it’s doubtful they will deliver any more than their contractual obligation. So let’s look at the math: a half billion divided by 2,000. That comes to a whopping $250,000 per job....

Hopefully you'll stay focused on this concept. It goes on constantly with lots of businesses, including Wal Mart and others you're highly aware of.

 

[Mark A]

Hopefully you'll stay focused on this concept. It goes on constantly with lots of businesses, including Wal Mart and others you're highly aware of.

It happens with all business, depending on the size of the business and how many jobs, tax revenue, property tax revenue, etc it brings into the city, state, etc. No one is forcing the city or state to do this, but financial analysis shows that it is beneficial. You take a bunch of undeveloped land and make a factory or store, and now the property taxes or sales taxes being generated are huge, and offset the initial tax breaks or infrastructure development required (there would be zero taxes to give breaks on if they don't have incentive to move their business there). Then on top of the business by itself, you have the property tax and income revenue from the new employees, and then the multiplier effect of the money that they spend at other businesses.

This is not about capitalism vs. socialism, this is about democracy versus totalitarianism. There are dictators like JoeSpareBedroom who want to tell other people how to run other people's city or state, even though he doesn't even live there. In a democracy, majority rules and if you don't like it you can move to the Peoples Republic of Berkley or some other suitable place that you will happier living in.

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

It happens with all business, depending on the size of the business and how many jobs, tax revenue, property tax revenue, etc it brings into the city, state, etc. No one is forcing the city or state to do this, but financial analysis shows that it is beneficial. You take a bunch of undeveloped land and make a factory or store, and now the property taxes or sales taxes being generated are huge, and offset the initial tax breaks or infrastructure development required (there would be zero taxes to give breaks on if they don't have incentive to move their business there). Then on top of the business by itself, you have the property tax and income revenue from the new employees, and then the multiplier effect of the money that they spend at other businesses.

This is not about capitalism vs. socialism, this is about democracy versus totalitarianism. There are dictators like JoeSpareBedroom who want to tell other people how to run other people's city or state, even though he doesn't even live there. In a democracy, majority rules and if you don't like it you can move to the Peoples Republic of Berkley or some other suitable place that you will happier living in.

Financial analysis does not always show that it is beneficial. Be careful with your generalizations. You will now respond in a predictable fashion.

 

[Tim]

It happens with all business, depending on the size of the business and how many jobs, tax revenue, property tax revenue, etc it brings into the city, state, etc. No one is forcing the city or state to do this, but financial analysis shows that it is beneficial. You take a bunch of undeveloped land and make a factory or store, and now the property taxes or sales taxes being generated are huge, and offset the initial tax breaks or infrastructure development required (there would be zero taxes to give breaks on if they don't have incentive to move their business there). Then on top of the business by itself, you have the property tax and income revenue from the new employees, and then the multiplier effect of the money that they spend at other businesses.

This is not about capitalism vs. socialism, this is about democracy versus totalitarianism. There are dictators like JoeSpareBedroom who want to tell other people how to run other people's city or state, even though he doesn't even live there. In a democracy, majority rules and if you don't like it you can move to the Peoples Republic of Berkley or some other suitable place that you will happier living in.

Still taxpayer funding. Is it as bad as a loan in poor economic times? People seem to think it's just the Big Three that are asking for taxpayer handouts.

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Still taxpayer funding. Is it as bad as a loan in poor economic times? People seem to think it's just the Big Three that are asking for taxpayer handouts.

......especially to companies which have proven that they aren't being run in a competent fashion, and have no clear plan for fixing that problem.

 

[Guest]

Part of the deal is "narrow mindedness"....

Mississippi will offer a large employer (this, BTW, goes on all over the place) tax incentives to open their business in a particular area.... The idea is to offer fair pay for the skills required. Is this a handout? Or is it a fair trade off for an economic stimulus?

This will decrease unemployment numbers, put people to work for wages that are fair in terms of skills and knowledge required and, in general, stimulate the local economy.

Quite a it different from autoworkers that are doing much better (in terms of wages and benefits) than those people that defend their stance... Ones wage is one thing... Your wage may be $20 per hour... Your cost to your wmployer is quite another thing... and, in the case of a UAW employee, your cost to your employer could be as much as $70 per hour.

Tunnel vision runs rampant in some regions.... even though it is often the biggest part of the problem.

 

[SoCalMike]

Capitalists are the biggest fans of socialism,

"trickle down" socialism. why? because they get to skim the cream off the top. look at the banking debacle. bankers stuffed themselves with commissions for handing out crappy loans they knew wouldnt get paid off. then when the shit hits the fan, they ask for (and get) 700 billion dollars. first thing they do? more bonuses, vacations, and retreats for the awesome job they did.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m% (B]

I don't think this is a loan, is it? It is giving Toyota the money to pay these workers wages for 7 or 8 years, from the taxpayer and workers themselves. This is what has to stop.

It's called getting the manufacturer into your area. See, they aren't dumb. They know that 4,000 underemployed people put more of a drain on the system than giving the manufacturer a tax break. it works well because instead of having 4,000 people making minimum wage, paying taxes at the minimum wage rate, and often asking for assistance such as fuel assistance or Food Stamps, you now have 4,000 people paying IN taxes at a higher rate. While they may not be making as much as if they had 4,000 people paying higher taxes AND a corporation paying taxes, they are still coming out ahead.

This is where 'trickle-down' works. Now you have 4,000 people with REAL wages and more disposable income, so more people are going to open shops in the area, and again the 'lost' taxes are more than compensated.

So, they didn't really give anything away. They're probably laughing their asses off at Detroit.

 

[edspyhill01]

It's called getting the manufacturer into your area. See, they aren't dumb. They know that 4,000 underemployed people put more of a drain on the system than giving the manufacturer a tax break. it works well because instead of having 4,000 people making minimum wage, paying taxes at the minimum wage rate, and often asking for assistance such as fuel assistance or Food Stamps, you now have 4,000 people paying IN taxes at a higher rate. While they may not be making as much as if they had 4,000 people paying higher taxes AND a corporation paying taxes, they are still coming out ahead.

This is where 'trickle-down' works. Now you have 4,000 people with REAL wages and more disposable income, so more people are going to open shops in the area, and again the 'lost' taxes are more than compensated.

So, they didn't really give anything away. They're probably laughing their asses off at Detroit.

And taxes the workers pay go to partially pay for their own salaries and benefits (if any), and the kickbacks to the politicians. Another perfect unfettered capitalist wet dream.

 

[Tim]

It's called getting the manufacturer into your area. See, they aren't dumb. They know that 4,000 underemployed people put more of a drain on the system than giving the manufacturer a tax break. it works well because instead of having 4,000 people making minimum wage, paying taxes at the minimum wage rate, and often asking for assistance such as fuel assistance or Food Stamps, you now have 4,000 people paying IN taxes at a higher rate. While they may not be making as much as if they had 4,000 people paying higher taxes AND a corporation paying taxes, they are still coming out ahead.

This is where 'trickle-down' works. Now you have 4,000 people with REAL wages and more disposable income, so more people are going to open shops in the area, and again the 'lost' taxes are more than compensated.

So, they didn't really give anything away. They're probably laughing their asses off at Detroit.

So you pay $250,000.00 per job? So you use taxes to pay the wages from which taxes are then deducted.
You must be an economist.

 

[Mark A]

So you pay $250,000.00 per job? So you use taxes to pay the wages from which taxes are then deducted.
You must be an economist.

Most of the tax breaks are on property taxes or other taxes that would not exist if the company did not move there and build a facility on vacant land or farmland. How much do you think you can tax farmland or vacant land?

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m% (B]

So you pay $250,000.00 per job? So you use taxes to pay the wages from which taxes are then deducted.
You must be an economist.

They aren't 'paying' anything. They have given Toyota tax breaks for moving the factory into the town.

In the long run, it makes economic sense. Like I said, 4-6,000 people
*working* is a lot better than 4-6,000 people NOT working, or making minimum wage.

The tax incentive will run out, and then the factory will be paying taxes.

The town is coming out ahead.

 

[News]

They aren't 'paying' anything. They have given Toyota tax breaks for moving the factory into the town.

In the long run, it makes economic sense. Like I said, 4-6,000 people
*working* is a lot better than 4-6,000 people NOT working, or making minimum wage.

The tax incentive will run out, and then the factory will be paying taxes.

The town is coming out ahead.

Yeah, just setting up a race to the bottom.

Ask Indianapolis how their big maintenance hangar deal worked out.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m% (B]

Yeah, just setting up a race to the bottom.

Ask Indianapolis how their big maintenance hangar deal worked out.

Only problem is, Toyota makes a *profit*.

YEah, setting up a company that operates at a loss is pretty stupid, isn't it?

 

[News]

Only problem is, Toyota makes a *profit*.

YEah, setting up a company that operates at a loss is pretty stupid, isn't it?

Profit or loss is not the issue.

The issue is municipalities issuing incentives to steal other municipalities' businesses and tax revenues.

Not even a zero sum game, a race to the bottom.

 

[Mark A]

Profit or loss is not the issue.

The issue is municipalities issuing incentives to steal other municipalities' businesses and tax revenues.

Not even a zero sum game, a race to the bottom.

Not any different than a business (or individual proprietor) who lowers their prices to attract more business away from other businesses. Other countries do the same thing to attract business to offshore locations. That's the way the system works. If you don't like it, there is still North Korea or Cuba that you can move to.

 

[News]

Not any different than a business (or individual proprietor) who lowers their prices to attract more business away from other businesses. Other countries do the same thing to attract business to offshore locations. That's the way the system works. If you don't like it, there is still North Korea or Cuba that you can move to.

Enjoy your race to the bottom. First one there loses.

 

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Not any different than a business (or individual proprietor) who lowers their prices to attract more business away from other businesses. Other countries do the same thing to attract business to offshore locations. That's the way the system works. If you don't like it, there is still North Korea or Cuba that you can move to.

Close attention to the workings of your city or town council will reveal that such dealings are not always based on good business sense. Unfortunately, such close attention might require ripping yourself away from television once or twice a month.