Toyolet prius efficiency

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by isquat, Mar 21, 2007.

  1. isquat

    isquat Guest

    http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html

    maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after
    all and Ed Markey would finally shut up?
    Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol?
     
    isquat, Mar 21, 2007
    #1
  2. Wow - that screwy story is being quoted all over the place. It's hard to
    know where to start with what's wrong with it, but a bit of checking into
    the history and current status of that nickle plant in Ontario should
    clarify just how bogus the story is. After that, consider how miniscule the
    fraction of nickle output that goes into Prius batteries is and the
    ludicrous assertion that the expected life of a hybrid is 100K miles (mine
    had more than that when I bought it, and it drives like new)....

    Don't worry, though. You probably won't be forced into buying a hybrid
    anytime soon. When conventional power trains can't compete in either power
    or efficiency, your choices may be limited, but I bet you could still buy a
    20th century car even 30 years from now. Maybe even one with 4-wheel drum
    brakes and recirculating ball steering and a Kettering ignition.

    When I was a kid fascinated by electronics, the limitations and cost and
    complexity of transistors spawned pronouncements that transistors would
    never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
    became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Mar 22, 2007
    #2

  3. This site is pretty silly, claiming that a Prius is more harmful to
    the environment than a Hummer. There argument sums up to:

    Zinc for the battery is mined and this one zinc mine was an
    environmental disaster dating back more than 50 years. Response:
    Environmental standards have improved a lot in the last 50 years. The
    fact that the mine is in Canada assures me that it is no running in an
    environmentally sound manner.

    The battery has a limited life and must be disposed of. Response:
    systems are well in place to recycle the materials which will reduce
    the need to mine new ore.

    The materials for the battery are moved around the world during
    manufacturing. That wastes energy. Response: Silliest argument of
    all. This is true of any vehicle and most any large or complex
    manufactured item. How does the cost of moving those batteries
    compare with the cost of moving the steel for the Hummer from Korea or
    Japan or China to the US? How far did the coke and iron have to
    travel to the steel mill?

    The Hummer will last 300,000 miles and the Prius will only last
    100,000. Response: Pure speculation. If gas goes to $5, I could see
    the Hummer getting taken out of service immediately. Even at $3,
    putting $2K into a 100,000 mile, 45 mpg Prius makes good economic
    sense if you think it will go at least another 50,000. Most long-term
    Toyota (and Honda) owners will think that is a pretty good bet.

    Some conventional subcompacts can get almost 45 mpg. Response: Prius
    isn't a subcompact and Hummers get about 12.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Mar 22, 2007
    #3
  4. isquat

    isquat Guest

    On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
    Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
    early 21st century. I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
    a day, but that might just be me silly. I wonder if the same
    problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
    or Tesla has a simpler system. Someone is going to buy that fat pig
    anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
    or so shaved for the rest of the population.
    That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted
    it down with the nickel anchor.
     
    isquat, Mar 22, 2007
    #4
  5. isquat

    Bucky Guest

    It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is
    only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic.
    But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids:
    typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that
    compared to a Hummer.
     
    Bucky, Mar 22, 2007
    #5
  6. I see you have no experience with the Prius. Mine is the second one in the
    family; we bought my wife's 2002 new nearly 5 years ago and it has been by
    far the most trouble free car I've ever owned. It has needed only routine
    maintenance, tires and a replacement windshield (Arizona should be called
    "the land of rocks") in all that time. The 2002 I bought with 103K miles
    last year has almost exactly the same service history.

    I got excited about hybrid technology when I first heard about it around 20
    years ago. It's the answer to an engineer's prayer: The flexibility and
    responsiveness of an electric car and the range of a fuel powered car.
    Better yet, although car engines very rarely get into double-digit
    efficiency range, a serial hybrid (not available commercially yet due to the
    state of development of the higher power electrics) can manage 15-20%
    efficiency.

    In the meantime, the series-parallel hybrid power train in the Prius is only
    one of its features and was not even in the original design. It was designed
    from the ground up as a 21st century vehicle (the project was known as G21 -
    see http://www.vfaq.net/docs/Prius_that_shook_world.pdf ). They did a great
    job with the interior volume; we've taken long trips with 5 people in my
    daughter's '93 Accord and in my wife's 2002 Prius... the Prius is definitely
    roomier in back. The current models are even roomier, fitting the midsize
    mold.

    With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that is
    3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to
    Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change. And
    we haven't seen anything yet.

    (And you do reboot your car several times on an average day... that's the
    rrr...rrr noise you hear when you turn the ignition key all the way to the
    "start" position.)

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Mar 22, 2007
    #6
  7. isquat

    isquat Guest

    The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have
    the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the
    90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials?
    That one surely does not run the motor at idle.
     
    isquat, Mar 22, 2007
    #7
  8. isquat

    rick++ Guest

    Its a similar situation with computer chips and solar cells
    considering the nasty chemicals that go into manufacturing them.
    There several toxic waste sites around Silicon Valley from
    chemical leaks in older days when they were less careful.
    Its improved now, or been offshored.

    Or that Google is one of the largest consumers of electric
    power in theworld because it has the worlds largest computer
    system- 2 million CPUS spread over 60 data sites.
    But to be fair, Google is also the most efficient computer
    operator in the world per terabyte of storage because they
    have paid both economic and ecological attention to
    efficient computing.

    Being green isnt easy.
     
    rick++, Mar 22, 2007
    #8
  9. isquat

    isquat Guest

    On Mar 22, 4:57 am, "Michael Pardee"
    pluck the high tech brick out and put and old tech
    battery in and you'd get an exact same highway mileage.
    If the software can manage the battery switch that is.
    Can it?
     
    isquat, Mar 22, 2007
    #9
  10. isquat

    rick++ Guest


    Doesnt follow?
    A gallon of gasoline burned in a Civic or a Hybrid still puts
    22 pounds of carbon dioxide in the air. Its just the Hybrid
    goes 40% further per gallon.
     
    rick++, Mar 22, 2007
    #10
  11. Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge
    technology for the next 50 years?

    As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or
    so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a
    television until then because they had tube technology?
    What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the
    Prius.
    What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius?
    ??? The current Prius was designed for the ground up to be a mid-size
    hybrid car.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Mar 23, 2007
    #11
  12. isquat

    Bucky Guest

    man, you are skeptical. Tesla? that's an all-electric. which probably
    produces more emissions than a hybrid because the electricity is
    generated by burning coal, natural gas, and oil.

    "Emissions - 89 percent fewer smog-forming emissions than the average
    new car, exceeding the standards for a Super Ultra Low Emission
    Vehicle (SULEV)"
    http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/toyota-prius-overview.html

    The reason why hybrids can have near zero emissions is because they
    keep the engine running at peak efficiency as much as possible.
     
    Bucky, Mar 23, 2007
    #12
  13. isquat

    Bucky Guest

    car emissions consist of hydrocarbons, nox, carbon monoxide, and
    carbon dioxide. A lot of the emissions occur when the engine is in a
    transitional state or not running at optimal efficiency. With a
    parallel battery power, hybrids can keep engines running at optimal
    efficiency (or off). Hybrids produce less emissions than simply the
    difference in mpg.
     
    Bucky, Mar 23, 2007
    #13
  14. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. If you are recommending
    replacing the NiMH battery with lead-acid, no, it can't be done. The NiMH is
    deeply integrated into the hybrid system via the cell bank monitoring. Since
    the SOC/voltage curves for lead-acid are not the same as for NiMH the
    battery would either fail to receive a charge or would persistently
    overcharge.

    Considering the 12V AGM lead-acid "aux" battery in Prius cars is as
    troublesome as the 12V battery in other cars and the NiMH main battery is
    extremely reliable at least up to the 200K mile mark (based on owner
    reports), I don't see the reason to switch battery types.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Mar 23, 2007
    #14
  15. isquat

    isquat Guest

    It was a piece of junk when it came out.
    The only notable part is the hybrid power train.
    Remove that and you are left with an obviously shitty platform.
    Tubes have their place in high end audio. Just like the prius:
    niche technology adopted far wider than it should have been.
    Taxis and mail delivery: maybe. I don't see what use
    there is to the general public.
    Design defects? You mean aside from being a boring piece of shit? As
    for production defects there are plenty:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/9565/software-problem-affects-some-toyota-prius-hybrids.html
    http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyautoinsider/10194/toyota-recalls-prius-hybrids.html
    if you google enough you'd find a bit more with the older
    Echo based crappola.
    Same buggy electrical system I suppose. Too early to tell,
    but judging by the delayed shipment of the first ones
    they had serious problems going into production even
    with the helping hand of Lotus. In all fairness the first
    crop of bmw 3xx had their share of electrical problems also.
    The problem is: prius is not half the car beemer is.
     
    isquat, Mar 23, 2007
    #15
  16. Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum tube..



    A note regarding the Tesla, I believe that it is solely electric. I'm
    following the sedan design closely as if it works out, it is not all
    that far (costwise) from being within range from an economic standpoint.
     
    Grumpy AuContraire, Mar 23, 2007
    #16
  17. Certainly the most notable aspect of the car, but it is otherwise a
    competent family vehicle. Comfortable and reliable.
    General transportation with excellent fuel economy. What's wrong with
    that?
    Modified early production Prius being run in an unorthodox manner at
    the Bonneville salt flats. This may have been related to the recall
    problem discussed below. I don't recall any automotive reviews or
    owner reports mentioning this as a problem, at least since the recall
    was completed.

    If you want to rant about boring pieces of shit, why don't you pick on
    the Dodge Caravan? The Prius doesn't have the performance I would
    personally prefer, but it is interesting in its unconventional
    operation.
    So, the car had a recall. Lots of cars have recalls. Why pick on
    this one? The Prius has an excellent reliability record.

    The old model wasn't as good as the new one in many respects, but it
    is still more reliable than just about anything that isn't a Toyota or
    Honda product.

    I doubt it. The Tesla is pure electric. Why would its electrical
    system have anything to do with a Prius. Other than the glitch with
    the recalled 04/05s (which have all been fixed by now), what Prius
    bugs are you referring to? Be specific.
    Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius,
    Tesla or BMW?

    By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of shit. My personal
    guess is that it will be an exciting piece of shit, assuming you can
    get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the
    batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track.

    Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328)
    that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far
    cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and
    performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much.

    For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either
    of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW
    is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and
    modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the
    performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky
    (and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car.
     
    Gordon McGrew, Mar 24, 2007
    #17
  18. isquat

    isquat Guest

    You are saying that the power plant that for example burns
    diesel does so with more emissions than a diesel car does?
    Nuclear plants produce relatively clean electricity
    unless they blow up or the by products are disposed of improperly.
    It's definitely easier to control the waste from immovable
    plant than from hundreds of millions of cars (some of which
    are even exempt from emissions testing in the US, and out
    of USA I bet some countries don't even have a requirement to
    test the cars as a part of an annual check).
     
    isquat, Mar 24, 2007
    #18
  19. He would have saved himself embarrassment if he had RTFM. Can't fault the
    car for the driver's error.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Mar 24, 2007
    #19
  20. And high power or GHz+ transmitters and microwave ovens still use tubes.
    There will always be conventional power trains, too, in trucks and
    motorcycles. But just as most electronics applications today are solid state
    it is a safe bet that passenger cars will be almost entirely hybridized (or
    whatever comes next) in a handful of decades.

    Change is something we either accept or not, but it occurs anyway because of
    market forces or government fiat. I would not have predicted the complete
    takeover of EFI in the US, but the requirements of emission control
    outweighed the high cost and modest benefit. If CAFE comes back with a
    vengeance the changeover to hybridization may be quicker than I expect. In
    the end, the performance will be what the public will demand even if the
    gov'ts don't.

    "... 'cause it's understood I got a fuel injected engine under my hood!
    What, all of you too?" Apologies to the Beach Boys.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Mar 24, 2007
    #20
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