Timing belt noise....ticking 93 Accord

[honda man]

Just replaced the timing belt on my 93 accord. Used OEM belts, seals,
and a GMB water pump. Car has 215k and is the second timing belt. All
seems well except for a rapid ticking sound which seems to be coming
from within the timing belt upper cover. Ticking noise goes away when
the car is warm, and returns when the car is started cold. Wonder if
it might be the belt too loose? Tighened everything like the service
manual suggested, (three teeth counter clockwise, tighten tension bolt)
Seems to run just fine, but am wondering what the ticking noise is.
Kind of sounds like maybe slack in the belt is hitting the upper cover,
but if it were that loose, I thought it would jump a tooth. I do not
believe it is valve noise. Any suggestions?
Thanks.

 

[jim beam]

Just replaced the timing belt on my 93 accord. Used OEM belts, seals,
and a GMB water pump. Car has 215k and is the second timing belt. All
seems well except for a rapid ticking sound which seems to be coming
from within the timing belt upper cover. Ticking noise goes away when
the car is warm, and returns when the car is started cold. Wonder if
it might be the belt too loose? Tighened everything like the service
manual suggested, (three teeth counter clockwise, tighten tension bolt)
Seems to run just fine, but am wondering what the ticking noise is.
Kind of sounds like maybe slack in the belt is hitting the upper cover,
but if it were that loose, I thought it would jump a tooth. I do not
believe it is valve noise. Any suggestions?
Thanks.

safe thing is to recheck tension. it's a pita, but it has to be done.
belts don't always jump when loose because when rotating, they're held
tight on the one pulley run that matters - cam to crank. my own civic
belt had been so loose [unknown to me] that when i finally got around to
replacing it, i took the top cover off, turned the pulley wheel
backwards to get the pulley holder aligned right, and watched the belt
skip right before my eyes! it had done over 10k of redlines under my
heavy boot since purchase in that condition - i was incredibly lucky.

other sources of tick include slight belt misalignment, wrong placement
of the dished sliders on the crank pulley, loose auxiliary belts, a/c
tensioner bearings... need to get in there with the stethoscope [stick
of wood against the ear].

 

[duckbill]

You have alreadry received good advice, but here is something else you
might want to consider. Lossen/ remove all accessory drive belts and run
the engine to make sure they are not the noise makers. Good luck.

 

[honda man]

Thanks for the response. I plan to get in there in five days or so.
Hope there will be no problems until then. Seems to "tick" less with
warmer weather. I wonder if my 12 year old tensioner springs have lost
some of their pull, causing the belt not to tighen as much as it needs
to? Any comments on old springs not pulling the belt tigher? When I
put it together, the belt was tight on the cam to crank side, and loose
(what seemed to be too loose) on the water pump side.

Thanks.

 

[Elle]

Thanks for the response. I plan to get in there in five days or so.
Hope there will be no problems until then. Seems to "tick" less with
warmer weather. I wonder if my 12 year old tensioner springs have lost
some of their pull, causing the belt not to tighen as much as it needs
to? Any comments on old springs not pulling the belt tigher?

I was advised to change my 91 Civic's tensioner about every other timing
belt change.

My Civic has 174k miles on it and the original tensioner. No problems so
far. I change the belt next year and already purchased a new tensioner,
based on what people here told me, for a related job, anticipating I might
want to replace the tensioner sooner rather than later.

You should google the two Honda newsgroup archives for {tensioner bearings}
for more discussion, as well as keep checking back here. See for example:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/browse_thread/thread/862f4c33c05812b/41da0fbd99460b19?lnk=st&q=tensioner+bearings+group%3Arec.autos.makers.honda&rnum=10#41da0fbd99460b19


Seems there's some discussion elsewhere of varying noise from the bearing
from cold to hot, and checking this with the method Jim described.

 

[jim beam]

Thanks for the response. I plan to get in there in five days or so.
Hope there will be no problems until then. Seems to "tick" less with
warmer weather. I wonder if my 12 year old tensioner springs have lost
some of their pull, causing the belt not to tighen as much as it needs
to? Any comments on old springs not pulling the belt tigher?

yes. age should not affect this spring, but general gunk and debris
buildup around the tensioner mounting definitely do. i had to tension
mine a couple of times before i figured out that i had to loosen the
tensioner pinch bolt much more than i thought was necessary for it to
have sufficient float for the spring to pull the pulley tight.

When I
put it together, the belt was tight on the cam to crank side, and loose
(what seemed to be too loose) on the water pump side.

see above! but you definitely got the most important factor identified
ok, that of making sure the drive side of the belt is tight before
attempting to tension. bonus points for that if it's your first time.

 

[Dufus Systems]

I was advised to change my 91 Civic's tensioner about every other
timing belt change.

If I have the time belt off, I replace the water pump, tensioner and spring
every time. Now that's within reason, I don't do it if it's been 10K miles
but, like doing a clutch and replacing the throw-out and pilot bearing
every time, it's just good insurance. The cost of these parts is low
compared to what my time's worth. If the water pump/tensioner quits, you
might be out a motor.

 

[n8zdogg]

Had the exact same thing - check your belt tension. Mine was fine after
replacing the belt.

 

[honda man]

Had the exact same thing - check your belt tension. Mine was fine after
replacing the belt.


--
n8zdogg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
n8zdogg's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?userid=406520
View this thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=528410

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Well, I got around to looking at the cause of the ticking noise, and
found out what was happening. The timing belt teeth were hitting the
plastic "Timing Belt Back Cover" (behind the cam gear) and the "Timing
Belt Front Upper Cover" rear bolt sleeves causing the ticking or rattle
noise! Seems the timing belt between the water pump and the cam is too
loose causing it to make contact with the bolt sleeve. The timing belt
between the cam and the crank is tight, but seems too loose between the
water pump gear and the cam...and I guess it is given the fact that it
is making contact with the plastic bolt sleeve!

Soooo, I thought simple fix, just readjust the timing belt, which I did
do, tried multiple times, (set engine to TDC, loosen adjusting bolt,
rotate engine counter clockwise three cam teeth, and tighten adjusting
bolt) belt still seems to loose. Next I tried "helping" the tensioner
tighten the belt by pulling up on the timing belt tensioner with a
"customized wire hook" but when I pulled up on the rear timing belt
tensioner, it seemed as though it was as high as it would go, and would
not pull any higher. I even tried to push or rotate the water pump
gear clockwise to aid the tensioner in pulling the belt tight! Again,
it seemed like the tensioner was as high as it would go, and still
could not seem to get the belt between the water pump and the cam any
tighter. I performed all of this with only the upper timing belt
cover, and valve cover removed. With a flash light, I looked down near
the spring on the rear tensioner, and it looks like the tensioner is
pulled all the way up, as if it is not able to get any higher, or pull
the belt tighter. The "wing" part of the tensioner bracket that allows
you to lock it in place by inserting a lower cover bolt, is pulled up
beyond the bolt hole on the block, as if it is as high as it can go.
Hopefully you know what I mean, from my description.

At this point, not being able to get the belt any tighter, I decided to
trim back the upper cover sleeve with a razor blade about 1/8 - 3/16 of
an inch, so the belt will not make contact with it. Was still able to
insert the bolt without any trouble. Started the engine, and the
ticking is gone, however, I think the belt is still too loose. How can
I get this belt tighter? Seems like it is not loose enough to jump a
tooth on the cam, but think it needs to be tighter.

It's a new honda timing belt, can't be too long...

Any help here?

Thanks all!

 

[jim beam]

Well, I got around to looking at the cause of the ticking noise, and
found out what was happening. The timing belt teeth were hitting the
plastic "Timing Belt Back Cover" (behind the cam gear) and the "Timing
Belt Front Upper Cover" rear bolt sleeves causing the ticking or rattle
noise! Seems the timing belt between the water pump and the cam is too
loose causing it to make contact with the bolt sleeve. The timing belt
between the cam and the crank is tight, but seems too loose between the
water pump gear and the cam...and I guess it is given the fact that it
is making contact with the plastic bolt sleeve!

Soooo, I thought simple fix, just readjust the timing belt, which I did
do, tried multiple times, (set engine to TDC, loosen adjusting bolt,
rotate engine counter clockwise three cam teeth, and tighten adjusting
bolt) belt still seems to loose. Next I tried "helping" the tensioner
tighten the belt by pulling up on the timing belt tensioner with a
"customized wire hook" but when I pulled up on the rear timing belt
tensioner, it seemed as though it was as high as it would go, and would
not pull any higher. I even tried to push or rotate the water pump
gear clockwise to aid the tensioner in pulling the belt tight! Again,
it seemed like the tensioner was as high as it would go, and still
could not seem to get the belt between the water pump and the cam any
tighter. I performed all of this with only the upper timing belt
cover, and valve cover removed. With a flash light, I looked down near
the spring on the rear tensioner, and it looks like the tensioner is
pulled all the way up, as if it is not able to get any higher, or pull
the belt tighter. The "wing" part of the tensioner bracket that allows
you to lock it in place by inserting a lower cover bolt, is pulled up
beyond the bolt hole on the block, as if it is as high as it can go.
Hopefully you know what I mean, from my description.

At this point, not being able to get the belt any tighter, I decided to
trim back the upper cover sleeve with a razor blade about 1/8 - 3/16 of
an inch, so the belt will not make contact with it. Was still able to
insert the bolt without any trouble. Started the engine, and the
ticking is gone, however, I think the belt is still too loose. How can
I get this belt tighter? Seems like it is not loose enough to jump a
tooth on the cam, but think it needs to be tighter.

It's a new honda timing belt, can't be too long...

Any help here?

Thanks all!

what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
swapped out before you got it.

one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
fail, etc. etc.

 

[Jason]

what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
swapped out before you got it.

one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
fail, etc. etc.

Excellent post. Keep up the great work.

 

[honda man]

what a /huge/ pita! sounds like you have been given the wrong belt.
the correct belt /definitely/ tightens ok, and the idler pulley is /not/
at the end of its slot when tight. even if the part number on the box
is ok, it doesn't mean the belt inside was correct - factory mixup and
all that... can you check the number on the belt while it's on the car?
also, double-check the model number on the engine in case it was
swapped out before you got it.

one more thing, when you have everything back to normal, don't "help"
the belt tighten. the correct procedure of tensioning the run between
the cam & the crank, then allowing the tensioning spring to do its work
gives exactly the correct belt tension - and there will be no slop. any
more than that and the belt can fail prematurely, water pump bearings
fail, etc. etc.

Yes, it has not been fun...I checked the number on the belt before I
installed it, and it matched what was specified. Engine I believe is
original. Really stumped on this one. Should the idler tensioner
pully slot be somewhere in the center of the slot? I think the bottom
of the slot is higher than the temporary locking hole in the block.
Can only view with a flash light with the upper timing belt cover
removed. I'm not really looking forward to taking it all apart again
to get a better look. Couple other things crossed my mind, is the
water pump gear the same size...it looked to be the same size. I'm
grasping to come up with a cause of why the belt is loose. How much
wiggle should there be in the belt between the cam and the water pump?
Also, I'm able to slide the belt about 3/4" off the center of the cam,
kind of scary. The ticking has gone away due to my trimming, I think.
Runs fine, and I may just leave it alone... Thanks for the suggestions
Jim.

 

[jim beam]

Yes, it has not been fun...I checked the number on the belt before I
installed it, and it matched what was specified. Engine I believe is
original. Really stumped on this one. Should the idler tensioner
pully slot be somewhere in the center of the slot?

not center, but not topped out either.

I think the bottom
of the slot is higher than the temporary locking hole in the block.
Can only view with a flash light with the upper timing belt cover
removed. I'm not really looking forward to taking it all apart again
to get a better look. Couple other things crossed my mind, is the
water pump gear the same size...it looked to be the same size.

should be.

I'm
grasping to come up with a cause of why the belt is loose. How much
wiggle should there be in the belt between the cam and the water pump?

should be able to get about an inch from side to side on the longest
run. not more.

Also, I'm able to slide the belt about 3/4" off the center of the cam,
kind of scary.

that's not necessarily a problem. the belt should not be "tight", but
not sloppy. the only belt tension is from that idler wheel spring
before the bolt is tightened.

The ticking has gone away due to my trimming, I think.
Runs fine, and I may just leave it alone... Thanks for the suggestions
Jim.

could it be something to do with the two tensioner pulleys? they're
different sizes. could they possibly be switched? not sure how, but we
all make mistakes.

you could try taking some pics with the covers removed and posting them
on flickr.com. sometimes a second pair of eyes...