Time for gasolin summer mix yet?

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Cameo, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. Cameo

    Alan Bowler Guest

    Ethanol is now generally be added to gasoline, which
    is good because it is displacing MMT, which gummed up
    catalytic converters and engine control systems.

    Some of the ethanol does come from grain based alcohol
    but much also is imported from Brazil which uses sugar
    cane to produce ethanol. Sugar cane production is
    far more more efficient than grain based methods.
    Using corn you get about 25-30% more energy than you put into
    the process, so it is reducing oil consumption. With sugar cane
    the returns are much higher (300-400%) which is in the same
    ballpark as much of current North American oil production.

    Current US legislation blocks large scale imports of cane
    based ethanol.

    In the long run, grain based ethanol production is likely
    only an interim step. Most of the solar energy plants
    absorb goes into producing cellulose not the sugar and starch
    the seeds. If we used the cellulose in the rest of the
    plant instead of just the sugar and starch in the grain
    the energy payback would be much higher (competitive with
    oil). Most of the current infrastructure currently being
    built/used to produce ethanol from grains can be re-used
    with cellulose sources.
     
    Alan Bowler, Apr 14, 2011
    #21
  2. Cameo

    Tegger Guest


    Yes. We also have politicians who like to buy votes with pork; the farm
    lobby and Commercial Alcohols take full advantage of that.

    If politicians could not splash out cash to lobby groups, lobby groups
    would not exist. Think of it this way: which comes first, the flies or the
    garbage?
     
    Tegger, Apr 14, 2011
    #22
  3. Cameo

    Tegger Guest



    And if I were the size of a grain of rice, I could dance on the head of a
    pin; if we had perpetual-motion machines, we wouldn't need to use oil or
    ethanol; if I didn't need to breathe, I could live underwater.

    If if if if.



    Which is nowhere near /any/ sort of reality. Cellulosic ethanol is a pipe-
    dream that's used as partial justification for keeping the insanity alive.
     
    Tegger, Apr 14, 2011
    #23
  4. Cameo

    GrumpyOne Guest


    I think another factor is brand of gasoline. The discount brands are
    definitely noticable with regard to lowered mileage. OTOH, I've been
    using Shell mostly and there's not a huge difference.

    But I sure heard a lot of howling from my "el cheapo" friends that buy
    only discount gas...

    JT
     
    GrumpyOne, Apr 14, 2011
    #24
  5. Cameo

    GrumpyOne Guest


    Ethanol, climate change, health care reform are all liberal wet dreams
    having little to do with the scheme of things in the real world.

    I'm starting to think that only a regime change with a resultant "Fidel
    Castro" method of remedy will fix it...

    JT
     
    GrumpyOne, Apr 14, 2011
    #25
  6. Cameo

    Cameo Guest

    I only asked because I thought Canada was pretty selfsufficient in oil
    production.
     
    Cameo, Apr 14, 2011
    #26
  7. Cameo

    Alan Bowler Guest

    It's more than just a pipe dream. Iogen's demo plant produces about 1000
    gallons a day. There are other cellulosic technologies being
    developed other places.
     
    Alan Bowler, Apr 14, 2011
    #27
  8. Cameo

    Tegger Guest


    A thousand gallons a day is a toy number. And that's at the cost of the
    diversion of 40% of the world's corn production.

    They're going to need to be in the /millions/ of gallons per day to even
    come close to satifying the requiremenmts of the use of ethanol as a 10%
    additive, let alone as a fuel in its own right.

    The simple fact is that there is currently no source of cellulase (the
    enzyme that breaks down cellulose) available that could be produced in the
    volumes necessary to make ethanol economically viable. Not only that, but
    there is not even anything in the lab that holds the promise of mass-
    production of cellulase. A pipe-dream, as I said.

    Ethanol was, and is, a stupid, damamging idea. Unfortunately, thousands of
    influential people draw economic benefit from it at the expense of non-
    influential millions who have to pay for it, so it's not going to die
    anytime soon.
     
    Tegger, Apr 15, 2011
    #28
  9. Cameo

    Tegger Guest



    You want self-sufficient? Try Brazil.

    In the last couple of years Brazil has boosted their domestic oil
    production by 876%. That's not a typo. They've done this by accelerating
    the issuance of drilling permits on- and off-shore. Even the Brazilians
    realize ethanol is an expensive feel-good toy.
     
    Tegger, Apr 15, 2011
    #29
  10. Cameo

    Tony Harding Guest

    "30m" = "30 thousand" years? Damn, that's a long time!
    Ah, the magic of free markets!

    :)
     
    Tony Harding, Apr 15, 2011
    #30
  11. Cameo

    Tony Harding Guest

    Doesn't the cash flow from the lobbyists *to* the politicians? The
    lobbyists profit (handsomely) when they get the legislation they want
    and get back $1,000 for every $1 spent on politicians.

    Maybe this crap is done differently in Canada?

    Tony
     
    Tony Harding, Apr 15, 2011
    #31
  12. Cameo

    Dave Dodson Guest

    I am not familiar with MMT but the EPA attempted to force the addition of
    MTBE in our winter fuel here in Alaska. It didn't even last the first
    winter. They were told by our Governor at the time, after about two or
    three months, that MTBE was a health hazard and increased fuel consumption
    by such a degree that any emission reductions were lost, in fact reversed
    and it would NOT be used any longer. The fuel vendors were directed to
    cease putting it in the fuel immediately, which they did....

    Daved
     
    Dave Dodson, Apr 15, 2011
    #32
  13. Cameo

    Cameo Guest

    Who was the Gov?
     
    Cameo, Apr 15, 2011
    #33
  14. Cameo

    jim beam Guest

    1000:1? nah, the r.o.i. is better than that:

    <http://www.manufacturing.net/Saving-The-Penny.aspx?menuid=280>

    there's no business investment comparable to the return on the lobbying
    dollar. nothing even close.
     
    jim beam, Apr 15, 2011
    #34
  15. Cameo

    Tegger Guest



    That's how the politicians are swayed to bend their powers towards the
    lobbyists, and how the lobbyists make their living.

    The point is that politicians /have/ that power to funnel money one way or
    another. That's the power you need to take away from them. No garbage, no
    flies.




    Sure do. check out GE, ADM, ConAgra,and a host of other firms. They've got
    it down to a science.


    Nope. Exactly the same.
     
    Tegger, Apr 15, 2011
    #35
  16. Cameo

    Alan Bowler Guest

    It is true that Brazil boosted it's domestic production of
    oil, but they they were almost self-sufficient before those
    discoveries were made because they use ethanol for much of
    their fuel needs. Car fuel Brazil has at least 25% ethanol,
    and 90% of the cars and light trucks sold their now can run
    with up to 100% ethanol mix.
     
    Alan Bowler, Apr 15, 2011
    #36
  17. Cameo

    Alan Bowler Guest

    Canada is more than self-sufficient. We were that back in the
    oil crisis of the 70's. Production has gone up a lot since
    then as higher prices made things like the oil-sands and off-shore
    drilling economic (although with a lot of up-front government money
    to kick start it.)

    Today, Canada is the US's largest supplier of oil.
    (Mexico is second, then Saudi Arabia).
     
    Alan Bowler, Apr 15, 2011
    #37
  18. Cameo

    Tegger Guest




    Except that Canada imports quite a lot of oil.
    <http://aspocanada.ca/eia-country-analysis-briefs-canada.html>

    Excerpt:
    "Even though Canada is a net oil exporter, it imports sizable quantities of
    crude oil and refined products. According to the International Energy
    Agency (IEA), Canada imported around 1.2 million bbl/d of crude oil and
    refined products in 2006."




    Which means our oil isn't really economic to produce. Plus we're paying the
    rest of the world to take our expensive oil. Pretty stupid. And pretty
    Canadian.
     
    Tegger, Apr 16, 2011
    #38
  19. Cameo

    Cameo Guest

    So how come your enviromentalists don't prevent off-shore drilling the
    way they succeed in the US?
     
    Cameo, Apr 16, 2011
    #39
  20. Cameo

    Tony Harding Guest

    Agreed, I was just pulling numbers from the air.
     
    Tony Harding, Apr 16, 2011
    #40
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