Some ruminations on antifreeze

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cliff Freeling
  • Start date Start date
C

Cliff Freeling

It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the
badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because
the brand contains phospate. People say this and that,
and repeat what others say without much thought.

I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues,
and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast
Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and
recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently
pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates).
The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid
such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder
water than the U.S....makes sense to me.

Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html

Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this
page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their
standard product if it weren't fact anyway?

And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used
50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in
my cars with no problems.
 
Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html

Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this
page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their
standard product if it weren't fact anyway?

And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used
50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in
my cars with no problems.
Click to expand...

Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
well as low phosphate. It's incredible that you buy that "low mineral
content in the USA vs. Europe" crap from Peak. Water is different all
across the USA, as it is in Europe.

You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
Valvoline for about $9/gallon. Why screw around challenging what the
engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
for $5/year ?

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=10
 
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim Prestone is
not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few dollars it isn't worth
the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda sells a reasonably priced
antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it anyway I believe.

CaptainKrunch
 
Roughly 1/12/04 18:49, CaptainKrunch's monkeys randomly typed:
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which is an
abrasive.
Click to expand...

? Silicon dioxide can be used as an abrasive, but a silicate is not
silicon dioxide, nor is it a silicone, which is also not abrasive
as your girlfriend may or may not be able to demonstrate to your
satisfaction. As for silicate being "an abrasive" check out
ordinary old sodium silicate... a liquid.
 
The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which
is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim
Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few
dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda
sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it
anyway I believe.

CaptainKrunch
Click to expand...

Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced".
 
Jimmy said:
Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
well as low phosphate.
Click to expand...

Dude, you're not listening.
You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
Valvoline for about $9/gallon.
Click to expand...

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.
Why screw around challenging what the
engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
for $5/year ?
Click to expand...

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.
 
Cliff Freeling said:
Dude, you're not listening.

Havoline?

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.
Click to expand...

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.
Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.
Click to expand...

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.
 
Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes,
others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol
is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to
toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them
pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About
$0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of
(typically)
mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass)
Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either)
Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control)
Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale
inhibitor)
Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron)
Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder)
Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package.
Dye
Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or
a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to
stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too.
That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of
dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible
overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented
formulation
buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per
gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you
about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
 
In
Cliff Freeling said:
Dude, you're not listening.


So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who
"educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has
convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no
problems.


Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.
Click to expand...

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant.
The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last
week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine
Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than
required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular
("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff ....
spread over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.
 
<good educational stuff snipped for space>

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.
As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.
Click to expand...

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences,
and use a little intelligent reasoning.
None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.
Click to expand...

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America
just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.
 
Caroline said:
Have you used it in Hondas?
Click to expand...

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used
it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.
On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.
Click to expand...

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually
at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim,
I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.
I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.
Click to expand...

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.
 
Larry said:
There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
Click to expand...

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or
Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and
chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a
proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)
 
Cliff Freeling said:
"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.
Click to expand...

I agree and have similar experience. (I am an amateur home mechanic for very
basic car maintenance, like pretty much everything listed in the car's suggested
maintenance schedule.) I too loathe unnecessarily enriching corporate America.
E.g. I sure as heck don't change my oil every 3000 miles (anymore ;-) ). I'd
rather give the savings to charity.

Yet I hope we agree sometimes one does get what one pays for. Using OEM
anti-freeze might be one such instance, based on the many posts here on the
subject that talk about specific problems people feel their Hondas have had when
using NON-OEM anti-freeze, and the subsequent better performance when they
switched to OEM. Some of the people I respect most (e.g. who don't bullshit, who
don't push people around, and who admit their own mistakes over the years so as
to help others) in the group have this view based on personal experience with
their Hondas. I think I for one would be foolish to ignore it.

I appreciate your opinion. Barring further data, perhaps the Orange Dex is at
least a middle ground between the green Prestone/Peak and the OEM stuff. I will
keep the group posted... ;-)
 
In
Steve said:
Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that
Honda or Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of
physics and chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.
Click to expand...

You may be onto something! Sub molecular nano technology!

--

-Philip

'If you don't pay the people enough money,
they can't buy the cars." -Henry Ford
 
And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)
Click to expand...

You were doing Ok, until you started off on this tangent. There is nothing
wrong with using Dexcool in a modern engine and its arguably a better
antifreeze with a much longer-life additive package. You do want a very
good flush beforehand as there is some evidence of problems with the
organize acid chemistry in Dexcool reacting poorly with the additive package
in conventional ethylene glycol AF.

- Mark
 
: It doesn't take much of a USENET search to see all the
: badmouthing about Peak antifreeze, I guess mainly because
: the brand contains phospate. People say this and that,
: and repeat what others say without much thought.

: I have visited the Peak site and they discuss these issues,
: and what they say makes sense to me at least. People blast
: Peak because of the phosphates, then turn right around and
: recommend distilled water for cooling sytems (which apparently
: pretty much removes any negative effect from the phospates).
: The Peak site claims that some European car makers say to avoid
: such antifreezes simply because Europe generally has much harder
: water than the U.S....makes sense to me.

: Read it for yourself: http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html

: Maybe I'm naive, but how could they legally make the claims on this
: page (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peakanti.html) about their
: standard product if it weren't fact anyway?

: And yes, I changed the coolant in my German car today, and used
: 50/50 Prestone and distilled water, but have used Peak for years in
: my cars with no problems.

Well, if your refering to a watercooled porsche, there is a TSB that lists
approved anti-freezes... in addition to the VW and Mercedes house brands,
one of the Zerex made the list...

Check alldata.com for the TSB.

Is it worth saving $5 bucks to screw up a $5k motor?
 
markjen said:
You were doing Ok, until you started off on this tangent. There is nothing
wrong with using Dexcool in a modern engine and its arguably a better
antifreeze with a much longer-life additive package. You do want a very
good flush beforehand as there is some evidence of problems with the
organize acid chemistry in Dexcool reacting poorly with the additive package
in conventional ethylene glycol AF.
Click to expand...


Dig deeper, the problems with DexCool are much more widespread than
simple incompatibility with residues from older antifreeze. There have
been reported problems with it in new-manufacture GM engines that NEVER
HAD any other type antifreeze in them, and other problems reported in
engines very meticulously flushed before conversion. If anyone, out of
"environmental conscience" or for whatever reason, really is hell-bent
on a new-formulation antifreeze I believe the G-05 formula used by
Chrysler and Ford (and others) has a FAR better track record than DexCool.
 
Dig deeper, the problems with DexCool are much more widespread than
simple incompatibility with residues from older antifreeze.
Click to expand...

I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But
neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.

- Mark
 
markjen said:
I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime.
Click to expand...

I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
 
I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
Click to expand...

You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
inhibitor package. I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
mud.

Just like oil, AF's are a huge source or urban legend mythology.

- Mark
 
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