SM4's windows' motor's relay* is unnecessary, wastes current, & can drain battery

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Steve Bigelow, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque?

    You're an idiot.
     
    Steve Bigelow, Feb 5, 2005
    #1
  2. 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque?

    You're an idiot.
     
    Steve Bigelow, Feb 5, 2005
    #2
  3. Steve Bigelow

    TE Cheah Guest

    Windows' motors can receive current directly from battery & be usable
    all the time ( instead of only when ignition is switched on ), if user
    removes *, then uses a U shape nail or a bent paper clip to connect the 2
    slots nearest to battery.
    * ( made by Mitsuba ) input pins have a resistance of 105ohm, in use will
    waste 14½ v ÷ 105ohm = 0.138 amp, & produce 2 watt of heat ( both battery
    & aircon's wires will get this heat ).
    Worse still, * enables any voltage leaking from starter switch ( mine leaks
    50-75 mV, although fitted as new only in 10-03, or just 9200 km earlier,
    part # 35130-SM4-305 ) to pass *, & drain battery : my 35Ah low-
    maintenance battery's charge was noticeably higher, after * was removed.
    If engine has low resistance cables & clean rotor arm's top, you'll feel a 1
    -2% extra torque ( caused by bigger sparks & faster combustion ) after * is
    removed, aircon & battery will be cooler too. Idling rpm can then be
    reduced ; torque @ low (600) rpm ( when alternator's ampere output is low
    ) will be noticeably higher.
    Engine will be easier to start, even in 30º let alone 0ºC air.
     
    TE Cheah, Feb 6, 2005
    #3
  4. Steve Bigelow

    TE Cheah Guest

    | 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque?
    U twit, 1-2% is not a minimum 2%.
    The extra ampere ignition will get is 0.138 A + a decrease in battery's
    self*discharge, from the ( 2watt ) reduction of heat received by battery.
    * depends on the type & size of battery & how well battery is insulated
    / cooled.
    After leakage is stopped, my battery's charge rose, then sparks grew even
    bigger, extra torque @600rpm grew to 5%. My cables have just 2ohm
    resistance, plug gaps are 3mm, original cables & gaps can produce only
    smaller increases.

    | You're an idiot.
    Then why have u not filtered me off your screen, & why read my post ?
    You're a lying honda salesman, will slur any1 who exposes honda's design
    flaws. Other salesmen here keep quiet this time ; this is 1 flaw u & they
    can't deny.
    This thread is to help SM4 owners start their engines, salesmen can curse
    all u & they want.
     
    TE Cheah, Feb 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Steve Bigelow

    TE Cheah Guest

    | 138/1000 of an amp will give me 2% extra torque?
    U twit, 1-2% is not a minimum 2%.
    The extra ampere ignition will get is 0.138 A + a decrease in battery's
    self*discharge, from the ( 2watt ) reduction of heat received by battery.
    * depends on the type & size of battery & how well battery is insulated
    / cooled.
    After leakage is stopped, my battery's charge rose, then sparks grew even
    bigger, extra torque @600rpm grew to 5%. My cables have just 2ohm
    resistance, plug gaps are 3mm, original cables & gaps can produce only
    smaller increases.

    | You're an idiot.
    Then why have u not filtered me off your screen, & why read my post ?
    You're a lying honda salesman, will slur any1 who exposes honda's design
    flaws. Other salesmen here keep quiet this time ; this is 1 flaw u & they
    can't deny.
    This thread is to help SM4 owners start their engines, salesmen can curse
    all u & they want.
     
    TE Cheah, Feb 20, 2005
    #5
  6. This does not make sense. Removing 138 ma of load when the engine is off
    would be a big improvement, since that much drain would kill the battery in
    a few days. But that drain when the engine is on is insignificant.

    The state of charge of the battery won't be affected at all by current draws
    under a few amps when the engine is on, and not significantly affected by
    current drain at all as long as the alternator capacity is not exceeded. The
    cars headlights/taillights consume a hundred times that much current, and
    the battery likes it just fine. The battery temperature is unaffected
    because the voltage is regulated - reducing current draw by 1 amp simply
    reduces alternator output by 1 amp.

    When you turn your lights on, you shouldn't experience a noticeable change
    in engine power. (You may hear a change in idle because of the additional
    drag from the alternator: 50 amps is about a 1 hp loss.) That is because the
    engine power is not affected by variations in ignition power unless
    something is very wrong with the ignition. Racers use special ignitions
    because they have done modifications that demand firing under increased
    cylinder pressures - the stock ignition in any modern car is more than
    powerful enough for the stock engine. That is the third layer of "don't
    care" betwen a 138 ma draw and engine power: 1) 138 ma is insignificant when
    the engine is running; 2) current changes don't significantly affect battery
    voltage if the charging system is not defective; 3) engine power is not
    significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective.

    If you are experiencing a reduction in engine power when you connect the
    window motor relay, you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit or
    have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Feb 20, 2005
    #6
  7. This does not make sense. Removing 138 ma of load when the engine is off
    would be a big improvement, since that much drain would kill the battery in
    a few days. But that drain when the engine is on is insignificant.

    The state of charge of the battery won't be affected at all by current draws
    under a few amps when the engine is on, and not significantly affected by
    current drain at all as long as the alternator capacity is not exceeded. The
    cars headlights/taillights consume a hundred times that much current, and
    the battery likes it just fine. The battery temperature is unaffected
    because the voltage is regulated - reducing current draw by 1 amp simply
    reduces alternator output by 1 amp.

    When you turn your lights on, you shouldn't experience a noticeable change
    in engine power. (You may hear a change in idle because of the additional
    drag from the alternator: 50 amps is about a 1 hp loss.) That is because the
    engine power is not affected by variations in ignition power unless
    something is very wrong with the ignition. Racers use special ignitions
    because they have done modifications that demand firing under increased
    cylinder pressures - the stock ignition in any modern car is more than
    powerful enough for the stock engine. That is the third layer of "don't
    care" betwen a 138 ma draw and engine power: 1) 138 ma is insignificant when
    the engine is running; 2) current changes don't significantly affect battery
    voltage if the charging system is not defective; 3) engine power is not
    significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective.

    If you are experiencing a reduction in engine power when you connect the
    window motor relay, you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit or
    have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Feb 20, 2005
    #7
  8. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    Hey Mike - I think the suggestion is that both Ohm's and Kirchhoff's laws
    were repealed. :)
    If the car radio is turned off, my spark will be hotter?? Maybe if I turn my
    lights off in the house, my PC will run faster???

    I was lurking the same thread and it didn't make much sense to me either --
    it sounded like trolling to me.
    Remco
     
    remco, Feb 20, 2005
    #8
  9. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    Hey Mike - I think the suggestion is that both Ohm's and Kirchhoff's laws
    were repealed. :)
    If the car radio is turned off, my spark will be hotter?? Maybe if I turn my
    lights off in the house, my PC will run faster???

    I was lurking the same thread and it didn't make much sense to me either --
    it sounded like trolling to me.
    Remco
     
    remco, Feb 20, 2005
    #9
  10. Steve Bigelow

    TE Cheah Guest

    | the stock ignition in any modern car is more than
    | powerful enough for the stock engine.
    Bullshit, F20A's small coil inside distributor is adequate @ up to just
    3000rpm unless low resistance cables replace the original Sumitomo
    cables, if not @3000+ rpm sparks will be too small to ignite fuel fast
    enough for complete combustion before piston reaches BDC, this is
    why exhaust noise would rise fast @>3000rpm.
    http://circletrack.com/tipstricks/139_0312_engines_power/index3.html
    CRV's non vtec engine & Mitsubishi 4G15P both have this same limit.
    Manufacturers know 99.9% buyers will not test drive new cars on high
    ways.

    | engine power is not
    | significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective.
    100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, the smaller
    are sparks [ii] the slower is ignition & combustion [iii] the louder is
    exhaust noise [iv] the lower is torque.

    | you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit
    105ohm, what short ?

    | or have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system.
    U want to bluff that no design flaw exists, only defects exist [ii] sell
    more parts. My F20A can idle @550rpm, no rise in exhaust noise @ even
    3200rpm, better than new, no "defect" can possibly exist. You're another
    honda salesman.
     
    TE Cheah, Feb 21, 2005
    #10
  11. Steve Bigelow

    TE Cheah Guest

    | the stock ignition in any modern car is more than
    | powerful enough for the stock engine.
    Bullshit, F20A's small coil inside distributor is adequate @ up to just
    3000rpm unless low resistance cables replace the original Sumitomo
    cables, if not @3000+ rpm sparks will be too small to ignite fuel fast
    enough for complete combustion before piston reaches BDC, this is
    why exhaust noise would rise fast @>3000rpm.
    http://circletrack.com/tipstricks/139_0312_engines_power/index3.html
    CRV's non vtec engine & Mitsubishi 4G15P both have this same limit.
    Manufacturers know 99.9% buyers will not test drive new cars on high
    ways.

    | engine power is not
    | significantly affected by ignition power unless the ignition is defective.
    100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, the smaller
    are sparks [ii] the slower is ignition & combustion [iii] the louder is
    exhaust noise [iv] the lower is torque.

    | you either have a heavy short in the relay circuit
    105ohm, what short ?

    | or have serious defects in both your charging system and ignition system.
    U want to bluff that no design flaw exists, only defects exist [ii] sell
    more parts. My F20A can idle @550rpm, no rise in exhaust noise @ even
    3200rpm, better than new, no "defect" can possibly exist. You're another
    honda salesman.
     
    TE Cheah, Feb 21, 2005
    #11
  12. Your central premise is based on the fiction that more powerful sparks
    produce more engine power. The concept of hotter sparks igniting the fuel
    "faster" makes no sense at all - in stock ignition systems more recent than
    the model T there is one spark, and it is timed to provide proper operation.
    You can buy multi-spark ignition systems that make the same sort of claims
    you do, but you notice they are not mainstream. The stock systems work fine
    for street use. They fire when they are supposed to, and they do it
    reliably. Even an occasional misfire will set the MIL light, so plenty of
    ignition power is designed into all modern cars - far more than in the cars
    of my youth.

    Suggesting a miniscule reduction in electrical load will materially affect
    the engine power through increasing ignition power is just plain odd.
    However, if you haven't learned that yet I doubt you will learn anything
    from me.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Feb 21, 2005
    #12
  13. Your central premise is based on the fiction that more powerful sparks
    produce more engine power. The concept of hotter sparks igniting the fuel
    "faster" makes no sense at all - in stock ignition systems more recent than
    the model T there is one spark, and it is timed to provide proper operation.
    You can buy multi-spark ignition systems that make the same sort of claims
    you do, but you notice they are not mainstream. The stock systems work fine
    for street use. They fire when they are supposed to, and they do it
    reliably. Even an occasional misfire will set the MIL light, so plenty of
    ignition power is designed into all modern cars - far more than in the cars
    of my youth.

    Suggesting a miniscule reduction in electrical load will materially affect
    the engine power through increasing ignition power is just plain odd.
    However, if you haven't learned that yet I doubt you will learn anything
    from me.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Feb 21, 2005
    #13
  14. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, the
    smaller
    Fewer amps received by spark plugs? For one, the current through the relay
    is 130 some mA. The battery has one fat lead going to the fuse box - let's
    assume that this is 0.2 ohms.(it is short, pretty fat and of course you do
    have ground resistance somewhere, so that's probably about right).

    I took you for a troll -- Now I see you are just confused and want to be
    right, in spite of natural laws we all agree exist:

    There are several legs from the fuse box to various parts of the car. One of
    these legs might have 130 mA more going through it than normal, according to
    you. Electically, draw a supply (battery), a series resistance (common wire)
    going to a parallel resistor circuit (the electrical systems of the car, all
    fused separately).
    ..
    How can that significantly affect the current through the circuit that makes
    the spark since that is on a separate leg? It is not like that current now
    is allowed to go to the other leg - that is not how it works (see Kirchhoff
    laws). The only way it affects the voltage and thus the current on the other
    leg is because the common leg has less current on it and thus less drop
    across it (Ohms law)

    So that 130 mA contributes to the drop across that common wire by (0.130 *
    0.2 = ) 26 mV!! 0.026 over 14.5 volt represents maybe 0.2 percent possible
    increase in voltage on that common point in the fuse box. Even rounding
    these numbers up makes them still insignificant.

    Since spark is generated by a coil and the voltage on the output of the coil
    is in direct proportion to what is on the input you can at best only expect
    0.2 higher voltage across your sparkgap -- and this is assuming a 100%
    efficient lossless coil and lossless ignitor, 0 mS rise/fall times,
    voltage/spark 'hotness' is linear, etc, etc. None of these conditions are
    true in real life but even assming they are, that is a fart in a wind
    storm!!

    No way that translates into the power gain you claim. Turning my radio off
    or not blinking my turn signals buy me tremendous power gains (they draw a
    lot more that 130 some mA) and they don't, do they?
    (rheatoric, by the way -- answering that will make you not look too bright)

    Calling people stupid because they don't agree with you does not change the
    laws of physics.
    Anyone with a US high school physics background can see you are mistaken. If
    you keep on replying with this theory you will be treated like a troll. If
    you do persist, let us know when you get that pesky cold fusion problem
    licked.
     
    remco, Feb 21, 2005
    #14
  15. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    100% bullshit ; the fewer amps are received by spark plugs, the
    smaller
    Fewer amps received by spark plugs? For one, the current through the relay
    is 130 some mA. The battery has one fat lead going to the fuse box - let's
    assume that this is 0.2 ohms.(it is short, pretty fat and of course you do
    have ground resistance somewhere, so that's probably about right).

    I took you for a troll -- Now I see you are just confused and want to be
    right, in spite of natural laws we all agree exist:

    There are several legs from the fuse box to various parts of the car. One of
    these legs might have 130 mA more going through it than normal, according to
    you. Electically, draw a supply (battery), a series resistance (common wire)
    going to a parallel resistor circuit (the electrical systems of the car, all
    fused separately).
    ..
    How can that significantly affect the current through the circuit that makes
    the spark since that is on a separate leg? It is not like that current now
    is allowed to go to the other leg - that is not how it works (see Kirchhoff
    laws). The only way it affects the voltage and thus the current on the other
    leg is because the common leg has less current on it and thus less drop
    across it (Ohms law)

    So that 130 mA contributes to the drop across that common wire by (0.130 *
    0.2 = ) 26 mV!! 0.026 over 14.5 volt represents maybe 0.2 percent possible
    increase in voltage on that common point in the fuse box. Even rounding
    these numbers up makes them still insignificant.

    Since spark is generated by a coil and the voltage on the output of the coil
    is in direct proportion to what is on the input you can at best only expect
    0.2 higher voltage across your sparkgap -- and this is assuming a 100%
    efficient lossless coil and lossless ignitor, 0 mS rise/fall times,
    voltage/spark 'hotness' is linear, etc, etc. None of these conditions are
    true in real life but even assming they are, that is a fart in a wind
    storm!!

    No way that translates into the power gain you claim. Turning my radio off
    or not blinking my turn signals buy me tremendous power gains (they draw a
    lot more that 130 some mA) and they don't, do they?
    (rheatoric, by the way -- answering that will make you not look too bright)

    Calling people stupid because they don't agree with you does not change the
    laws of physics.
    Anyone with a US high school physics background can see you are mistaken. If
    you keep on replying with this theory you will be treated like a troll. If
    you do persist, let us know when you get that pesky cold fusion problem
    licked.
     
    remco, Feb 21, 2005
    #15
  16. Steve Bigelow

    dan martin Guest

    Just to be a difficult SOB that I am. <G> and throw a monkey into the
    wrench, I have heard of some performance enthusiasts that switch off the
    alternator from the battery. The theory is , if I recall ( doubtful at times
    at my age) that the mechanical load that the alternator puts on the engine
    is significantly lessened if it isn;t producing electricity; conservation of
    energy and all that jazz.
    So during a race, the overall voltageon the system would decrease slightly,
    maybe a volt or two, which, accoding to the original posters viewpoint.
    should easily impact performance in a negative way, but alas, it doesn't.


    Anyways, Carry on!


    Cheers
    Dan






     
    dan martin, Feb 22, 2005
    #16
  17. Steve Bigelow

    dan martin Guest

    Just to be a difficult SOB that I am. <G> and throw a monkey into the
    wrench, I have heard of some performance enthusiasts that switch off the
    alternator from the battery. The theory is , if I recall ( doubtful at times
    at my age) that the mechanical load that the alternator puts on the engine
    is significantly lessened if it isn;t producing electricity; conservation of
    energy and all that jazz.
    So during a race, the overall voltageon the system would decrease slightly,
    maybe a volt or two, which, accoding to the original posters viewpoint.
    should easily impact performance in a negative way, but alas, it doesn't.


    Anyways, Carry on!


    Cheers
    Dan






     
    dan martin, Feb 22, 2005
    #17
  18. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    Heard similar things and can see how that could theoretically help, at least
    initially during a race. As long as the race is not too long, everything
    should be cool and the gang.

    My racing days are limited to trying to make it to work on time and kinda
    like my car starting when I am done for the day, so I'll leave it to you to
    try. Bring jumper cables so you can get back to your keyboard and report
    back :)

    Good point on how dropping the voltage doesn't seem to affect the
    performance - I guess that's just another wrench in the monkey <g>
     
    remco, Feb 22, 2005
    #18
  19. Steve Bigelow

    remco Guest

    Heard similar things and can see how that could theoretically help, at least
    initially during a race. As long as the race is not too long, everything
    should be cool and the gang.

    My racing days are limited to trying to make it to work on time and kinda
    like my car starting when I am done for the day, so I'll leave it to you to
    try. Bring jumper cables so you can get back to your keyboard and report
    back :)

    Good point on how dropping the voltage doesn't seem to affect the
    performance - I guess that's just another wrench in the monkey <g>
     
    remco, Feb 22, 2005
    #19
  20. Now, that makes sense! Even a 30 amp load at 14V is 420W, more than half a
    horsepower. Factor in the losses and the small reasons not to, and it is a
    reasonable thing to do for a race. Of course, a 140 ma load from the window
    relay is right at 2W, or about 1/370 of a horsepower.

    Mike
     
    Michael Pardee, Feb 22, 2005
    #20
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