Rust between wheel and wheel-hub

Hi,

I have a 2001 Honda Accord EX V6. There is some rust build-up between
my wheel and wheel-hub on the right, rear tire. This causes a clicking
noise when taking left turns (details in postscript). The first
appointment I could get at the dealer is on the 14th of this month.

Since I need to drive quite a bit (perhaps a 1000 miles) between now
and then, I was wondering if this is something that I should try
fixing on my own? Is more damage being done to the car if I continue
to drive it in it's current condition? Or is it best to avoid driving
the next 10 days and let the dealership fix the problem? The grease
costs $14 from Honda. They will charge at least an hour's labor ($72).

Also, the last service was done at 30,000 miles and it currently has
36,400 miles on it. The service schedule sets it due in another 1000
miles. I am planning to at least get oil and oil fitter changed.
Anything else I should get done?

Thanks in advance,
Musafir

PS: Psychichmechanic pointed out the issue for me. Then I found the
following surfing the net and it matches exactly the symptoms on my
car and I can see some rust build-up at the wheel/hub interface
<http://www.sts.sae.org/servicetech/july-2001/tech-tidbits.pdf>:

Honda Accords, 1999-2000, manufactured in Japan, can have a clicking
noise coming from a wheel while turning a corner, after the wheels and
hubs have heated up. Japan-assembled Accords have "JHM" for the first
three characters of the vehicle identification number. Honda has a
high-temperature, ureabased grease (part number 08798-9002), available
for the repair.
To diagnose, first confirm that the vehicle has the original factory
wheels. Next, drive the vehicle to a large, empty parking lot. Make
several quick stops to heat up the brakes and hubs. Then make several
left and right turns, and listen for a clicking sound coming from a
wheel, with a frequency that matches the tire rotation speed. If a
clicking sound is coming from a wheel at that frequency, perform the
repair. If a clicking sound is coming from a different location or has
a different frequency, troubleshoot other causes.
To correct the problem, remove all four wheels. Use sandpaper to clean
the rust from the face of all four hubs. Apply super high temperature,
urea grease to the rear face of each wheel where it contacts the hub
surface. Re-install the wheels, and torque the wheel nuts to 80 lb•ft
(108 N•m).

 

This is really weird. The article sounds genuine enough but I can't
imagine how a clicking noise arises because of rust build up between two
surfaces which are firmly bolted together. I'd sure like to know more
about the mechanism involved here. The only thing I can think of is that
because the two metals, hub and wheel, have different expansion rates there
is a very slight sliding between the two and the presence of corrosion
causes them to "chafe" against each other and make what is essentially a
creaking noise.

I can't see any possibility of damage from continuing to drive the car with
the "click"... but then I don't understand where the click is coming from.
I'd certainly not postpone any trip because of it though. The job is easy
enough if you don't mind getting your hands dirty. When I rotate my
wheels/tires, I always clean that mating area up anyway, especially the
center hole in the wheel, and put some anti-seize compound on it, to
prevent corrosion and avoid having a stuck wheel if I ever get a flat. I
don't think the Honda brand grease is critical here. Like I said, I've
used the Permatex anti-seize compound (silver stuff).

Pity you're just outside warranty - little enough that I'd challenge to
have the job done free, especially since it seems like a known issue and
I'd think there must be a TSB on it. If you had the correct 30K mile
service done then there is only the oil/filter for the next one.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Thanks for the response. My comments/questions inline ...

I will definitely let you know what the problem was once it gets
resolved.

[...]
Thanks for the tips on fixing it myself. If I cannot get the dealer to
do it for free, I will try it on my own coming weekend. Will let you
know if this was the issue.

Where do you search for these Tech Bulletins (TSBs)? Can you advise on
how to go about challenging the dealership? In addition, the Honda
Accord comes with a 3 yr unlimited mileage rust warranty. I tried to
talk about it to the dealership and they told me that the rust
warranty is only for parts with paint on them. Makes absolutely no
sense to me.

Thanks again,
Musafir

 

Hmmm, the dealer is sorta right here on the rust and painted parts - I
expect some rust to develop in areas like wheel hubs, brake caliper bodies
etc. on any car. Though www.alldata.com cannot provide the actual details
of Honda TSBs any longer you can look up TSB numbers and descriptions
there. There is a "wheel clicking noise" shown for the 2000 model (but not
for the 2001... YET), which may be unrelated to your problem but it's worth
a shot. As for challenging the dealer on getting Honda to pick up the
cost, your car is barely out of warranty and for such a piddly thing, the
mfr *might* be willing to pick up the cost of the fix... as a show of good
faith. Just try complaining about expectations of "Honda quality" without
getting aggressive - like anybody else, service managers respond better to
a friendly tone than the converse.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

This looks a simple repair that you can do your self and save $86 in
the process.

 

Hi - I got a total surprise from the dealership.

[...]

They told me that my rotors are rusted and both the rotors and the
rear brakes will need to be replaced. A total bill of $520/- They also
told me that three lug nuts were missing on the rear right wheel (the
one that is producing the noise)!! Given that the car was serviced at
30,000 miles at this very dealership and has been driven very nicely,
is it possible for all this damage to occur in 6000 miles??

Right now I have told the dealership to only change the oil and add
the lug nuts. I am going to put it up on a jack and see if the issue
is what I reported in this message chain or the rotors really are
shot.

I have never really worked on a car before and will need to study some
before I mess with the car. Thanks in advance for all advice,
Musafir

 

I'd like to see a car with 30,000 miles (or even 3,000) that doesn't have
some rust on the rotors. I think you found the problem with the 3 missing
lug nuts. If no one has touched that wheel since this place last serviced
it, you should be raising a big stink with them about trying to kill you by
not properly torquing the lug nuts on that wheel.

I'll bet the noise goes away once the lug nuts are replaced. If it
doesn't, and no one has touched that wheel but them, they should be fixing
whatever is wrong with it gratis.

 

I've seen rear rotors corrode badly on other Hondas, viz. my '99 Integra,
but we have a 2K Accord Coupe EX I4 and I've been keeping a close watch on
the rear rotors - at 37K miles, almost the same as you, they are corrosion
free. The missing lug nuts can only be due to severe incompetence on
someone's part - if you have not had the car touched by anyone else, you
need to find a new dealer to work on your car. Seriously, you have had
your life placed in peril here by people only seem to care about dipping in
your pocket.

What do they mean by "rear brakes will need replaced"? It has a wide range
of possibilities. If they mean simply replace pads, then IME, at 40K miles
or so, it's not unusual to have to replace rear pads on Hondas.

With alloy wheels and their larger hole patterns it's easy to check the
rotors without taking the wheels off.

It's because of the kind of incompetence you've encountered that I made up
my mind to DIY years ago. So I get my hands dirty occasionally; OTOH I
probably spend less time working on my car than I'd waste taking it back
and forward and sitting in dealer waiting rooms. I'd suggest you get a
service manual from www.helminc.com and start elarning.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[...]

E. Meyer - you were correct!! I had them change the oil and put in the
lugnuts and the noise is gone!!

But the dealership insists that the rear breaks are 100% worn (the
brake pads) and the rear rotors are rusted and need replacement. I
have really benefited from your advice and read up on brake systems. I
have ordered the Service Book as George advised. But I do not have a
shed where I could work on my car and the weather precludes doing it
in the parking lot (Massachussetts - snowed today).

So, the next set of questions in priority order:

1. To get a second opinion and brake pads replaced, is a place like
Midas Ok? I am thinking of having them take a look at the brakes and
replace them if needed. It seems that Midas uses their own parts and I
wanted to get your expert opinion on whether that would be a good
idea?

2. How much rust is too much rust? I could, I guess put it up on a
jack (this weekend there is suppossed to be some respite from
rain/snow/cold) and take a look at the rotors through the wheels.

3. Tools. I have no tools right now (except a torque wrench). I am
planning to buy some. At BJs I saw a box of basic tools (combination
spanner, wrench, pliars, screwdriver with a bunch of bits, allen keys)
for $30. Looked like a reasonable start to me. Any suggestions?

4. Maintenance Required Light. What does it mean? I am inclined to
believe that it is just wired to go on at a certain mileage. It is on
in my car and I am not sure what it means. Could not find anything
about it in the user's manual either.

I don't hear the brake wear indicator and the pedal feels just right.
But I guess I should check it anyways.

Thanks in advance,
Musafir

 

(Musafir) melodiously murmured in

Aftermarket pads are generally not a good idea. They will tend to overheat
and warp rotors, squeal, squeak and generate lots of sticky dust. Honda
pads are the best unless you spend very much more than OEM prices.
Aftermarket-rebuilt calipers will not be built to the same standards as
dealer-rebuilts.

There is a very sound reason why aftermarket is cheaper than OEM.

Too much rust is defined by two factors:
1) Pads will not contact entire surface of rotor. This symptom is
identifiable by circular bands of rust on the swept area of the rotor. Also
that the silver area extents do not coincide with the inner and outer
extents of the pads themselves.
2) Rotors worn down past their minimum thickness.

Rear disc brakes are a terrible, terrible idea for anyone living in a snowy
area (ask me, the Canadian, how I know).

Essential are: A 3/8" drive socket set, two 3/8" drive ratchets of
different lengths, at least one pivoting, 12mm and 10mm combination wrench
(preferably six-points on the closed end), 80-grit emery cloth (NOT
sandpaper), copper-based grease such as Loctite C5A, an impact wrench, a
nylon hammer, a large C-clamp, a piece of hardwood, Sil-Glyde lubricant, a
drill and good high-speed steel bits, jack stands, hydraulic jack. Forget
the factory-specified silicone lube for snowy areas. It will wash away in
weeks (ask me, the Canadian, how I know).

Desirable are, well, too much to list here.

You won't. The workshop manual will give the decoding information.
Illumination of the MIL light means that something has gone wrong with one
or more of the engine's electronic controls. Ignore it and you risk
something damage to something very, very expensive, like the catalytic
converter. A new OEM cat is about $1,000 US.

The wear indicator is only on the INNER pad. In rust-prone areas, it's
often the OUTER pad that wears first (ask me, the Canadian, how I know). If
that outer pad should get down to the steel, your first and only warning
will be the grinding death screams of your smooth rotor surface. Kiss
goodbye to $70 for each rotor, plus labor.

 

Guys - thanks for all your tips and advice. Due to the weather
(coooold) and lack of a workshop/shed/(covered area) where I could
work on the car, I got the job done from a mechanic that came
recommended from a friend. Did not go back to the dealer as one bad
experience was bad enough for me.

I am pretty happy with the service I got and the owner seemed to know
what he was talking about (most of the things he said matched the
advice I got here). He told me that the rust wasn't too bad and you
could choose to live with it. But the brakes would squeal a bit and
rust tends to build more rust. With the coming winter, I had them
resurface the rear rotors and replace the brake pads (Honda OEM).
Costed me a total of $208 (as oppossed to $520 estimate that the
dealer gave me).

Tegger - I was talking about the Maintenance Required Light, not the
Malfunction Indicator Light. I found in the google groups archive how
to turn that off.

Thanks again and warm regards,
Musafir