Request opinions on my sort-of-new Accord

General questions which is why I included five NG's.

I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).

The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
told me to (cross to front as the manual said).

Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
guess.
I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
wanted
to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
*turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
if they
got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
think
I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
*worse*
than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.

And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....

I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
little
on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.

http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/tt116/LyraVic/?action=view&current=GEDC0178.jpg

 

It sounds like your rotors are warped.

How could it be a wrecked Honda? You got it new. If you're worried about
this, the body-fender guy should be able to tell if it's been in a
accident pretty easily. Nice looking car though...

 

it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
create symptoms /like/ warping.

solution: clean the disk and wheel interface of rust. apply a little
antiseize. re-bolt the wheel with a two or more stage torque process,
using a torque wrench.

 

very common mistake. and one that allows the unscrupulous to soak you
for new brakes more often than not.

never allow any wheel monkey to re-bolt your wheels with air tools -
should always be done by hand using a torque wrench.

 

All of these questions should be addressed to the dealership and
perhaps Honda's Zone Office if you aren't happy with the response you
receive from your dealer. First and foremost the car is under warranty
and you should have taken it in immediately after you discovered the
"shimmy" when leaving the lot.

 

I've never owned a Honda so I defer to your expertise - all the cars
I've owned had the standard warping rotors. OTOH, I've never had a car
that was sensitive to rust on the wheel hubs. Does this happen mostly
with steel wheels or alloy wheels?

Those grease monkeys sure do like to over-torque those wheel nuts!

 

A classic wheel/tire/brake problem. First, the rim has to be within
tolerances when bolted to the car it has to run true. This can be
checked on the car with a dial indicator. Then the tire has to within
tolerances and this is the hard one to check. Balancing the tire is
easy but if the tire has bad belts or some kind of defect it can do
really strange things and shimmy is one of them. The brakes should be
the easiest. With the rotor on the car it's checked for run out and
Honda once had a bulletin about truing the rotor while on the car.
I sounds like you have something out of round or out of balance and a
brake problem.
Hunter is probably the best for finding and fixing these things.
Once you get your brake shimmy problem solved taking it easy on stops
will keep the problem from reoccurring.
Here some reading for you,
http://www.hunter.com/PUB/undercar/index.htm
Tire Rack has a lot of good information
http://tires.tirerack.com/search?p=Q&lbc=tirerack&uid=616724913&ts=custom&w=Rims&af=cat:tiretech&isort=score&method=and&view=list
What I'd do if I were you would be to find a good suspension shop and
have it all checked out. What I'd do if it were me would be to get the
old dial indicator out and start checking things out. And a long hard
stop generates a lot of heat, a whole lot of heat on the rotors and is
the best way I know to warp them.

 

it's probably for the reasons i said. try the scrape, anti-seize and
torque wrench solution.

the two are connected. seriously, it's very unusual for the brake disk
iron to actually warp.

it's more noticeable with steel..

 

Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. Heat
and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
can be a real issue.

There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. Roundness
or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
can occur.

Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
shudder.

A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. A good
shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. A dealership might be
good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
know how irritating it can be.

 

Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
this work
should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
week and
have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
every
single mile since purchase.

So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
it's
much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

 

Re your hood issue. The Hondas I have owned that were built in Japan
have/had absolutely perfect fit & finish; every gap aligned, every panel
perfectly flush with those surrounding it, etc. The one Honda I had that
was built in the US on the Accord line (a 2000 Acura TL) did not have
perfect fit & finish. There were minor but obvious misalignments around the
rear bumper and in a few other places. Check your serial number. If it
doesn't start with "J", you probably have your answer.

 

Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
this work
should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
week and
have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
every
single mile since purchase.

So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
it's
much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

********
You can do some checking on it, but if it is a new car, I think it is
somewhat
unlikely that it had been wrecked. Ask the dealership. You can also check
CarFacts (which I would do if it really bothers you) to see if they have any
records on it.

I have been very unhappy with a lot of dealerships. Their structure is
often
not one which encourages the best repairs for your car. You can keep
taking your car back to them because it is under warranty if you like, but
if you get a boogermonkey working on it, you may never be satisified.

IMO, you should talk with the service writer and perhaps even the mechanic,
and make sure you are being heard. Otherwise you are just a number.

In the last few years, I have seen a lot of wild ass guessing by shop
mechanics,
replacement of expensive parts to see if it will fix a problem, flat rating,
cutting corners, etc. No matter where you take it, be sure they are
competent
and conscientious.

 

The car was built at a U.S. plant. I know that for sure. IIRC, the
vast
majority of Accords sold in U.S. are built there. As you said,
and as I told my wife last night, that probably explains it.
The transmission was built in Japan though. Yayyy!

 

Oh no, I have no suspicion whatever that the car was wrecked. It was
brand spanking new when I got it. I just thought it might be an
issue, cosmetically speaking. The only thing I can figure is that
maybe the driver-side fender was made a wee bit narrow or something.
Everything's flush and tight...just that wider gap. I guess it's not
big
deal.

Yep, I've always serviced my own cars and NEVER go to a dealership
service dept. unless it's warranty work.

Oh yeah, I know all about that. I hear ya.

 

Yeah but when you replace tires, a lot of shops use air tools. I
don't recall any checking the tires with a torque wrench. I do agree
with another poster that many shops over torque.

 

Standard practice these days is to snug the bolts with an air wrench and
a torque-limit stick, then do the final torque-down with a torque wrench.

Actually most shops have been doing that for 10+ years now. Time flies.


With my own cars in my own garage, I just use my air wrench because I
have a very good feel for the correct torque with that wrench at the air
line pressure setting I run. Every so often I check myself with a torque
wrench and I'm never off by more than a couple of ft-lb. But you can't
do that in a shop where you grab a different air wrench every time or
you change a tire. Also most of my cars are old enough to be rear-drives
with integral hub-rotor assemblies instead of "top hat" rotors that
slide over the wheel studs like FWD cars. They are far less sensitive to
over-torquing because the hub/rotor assembly is so much beefier and
doesn't have an alignment issue if you torque one stud/nut down too hard
before the other side gets torqued.

 

Some use the sticks, some use torque wrenches, some don't use either one.
Most will use torque wrenches if you ask them politely. Tipping helps, too.
It takes a little more time to do it right.
--scott

 

I have had discs warped on more than one occasion by the TorxStik approach.
They are NOT failsafe.

If you want to be sure, ask them to torque the nuts on with a manual torque
wrench, and specify that they use the star pattern suggested by most
manufacturers. Then you are sure.

 

Who gives a **** about your Accord RICEMOBILE? This is a FUCKING Toyota
newsgroup. Get the **** out.

 

That brake rotors don't warp is an interesting idea that I've not heard
before. What happens to me is that heavy braking, such as when slowing
down at the bottom of a hill, will tend to cause an oscillating feedback
at the steering wheel.

Hopefully, you're right and I've been seriously misinformed, after all,
it's cheaper to wire-brush wheel hubs than to machine them. Will try
this - thanks!