(Recommendations) Ones I found useful: Consumer Rights Trouble, 2005 car reviews & Car Safety Seats

[w12332]
Hi everyone. Here you are, I'm saring some ones I found useful:

10 best cars for 2005:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jYXJhbmRkcml2ZXIuY29tL2FydGljbGUuYXNwP3NlY3Rpb25faWQ9MzMmYXJ0aWNsZV9pZD04OTE0&a=Y2Fy

"All 10Best nominees are either new or significantly updated for 2005".
* Categories are:
Best Sports Sedan
Best Luxury Sedan
Best Luxury Sports Sedan
Best Performance Car
Best Full-Size Sedan
Best Wagon
Best Muscle Car
Best Family Sedan
Best Sports Coupe
Best Luxury Sports Car
Find out who are the ones selected!.

-

Consumer Rights Trouble:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5nb3R0cm91YmxlLmNvbS9sZWdhbC9jb25zdW1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy

"75% of people surveyed would rather go to the dentist than a car
dealership"
....are you one of those? Be one of them no more with this really useful
articles collection.
Covers many worthy topics such as:
· The Art Of Car Buying
· Car Buying Vocabulary
· Used Car Options
· Car Trade In
· Should You Lease Or Purchase?
· Other Resources
Definitelly a must for any person who is into cars.

-

Car Safety Seats Guide.
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hYXAub3JnL2ZhbWlseS9jYXJzZWF0Z3VpZGUuaHRt&a=Y2Fy

Really "meaty" article with plenty of information, comparisons, etc.

· Important safety rules
· More!

____________________
URls are cloaked since some sites don't like inbound links from USENET
posts.
BTW, Visit http://www.gnosis-usa.com for spiritual assistance.
Have fun and enjoy your life in a good manner.

 

Consumer Rights Trouble:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5nb3R0cm91YmxlLmNvbS9sZWdhbC9jb25zdW
1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy

Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need a
new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my best
to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's (=
my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
mostly misogynist idiots.

 

Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.

 

do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their homework?

why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
did. got herself a good deal too.

 

I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are that
males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to speak) of
women with more success than they take advantage of men. I have studied with
men in engineering. I have witnessed the porn hanging in car dealerships,
and the vulgar talk about women. They are mostly misogynist, like I said.

I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this group whom
you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions and he couldn't
answer them all. So this was his response.

There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
knowing this tendency in advance.

 

homework?

I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female is
a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form of
simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words, the
man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This reality
indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's brains.

It's about power, both on the political level and the personal level. With
exceptions, of course. Also, there certainly are women who will use their
feminine wiles to turn the tables: Sex (or sexuality or sex appeal or
similar) can be used as a mighty cudgel. I'm sure you've seen women pull
this. It's their right and natural to find a way to attain power, just as
it's men's "right" and natural to find ways to hold the power as often as
possible.

Yes, I am open to that possibility. I figure my chances are better with a
female salesperson, though of course it's a cutthroat business, and surely
they will all go the way of, say, female real estate saleswomen. But at
least hearing, say, the F-word from a woman tends to be less likely than
with a man, where it's such an accepted part of male vocabulary that I'm
sure some here are baffled. No big deal. Yada.

On the nth hand, women do tend to be less aggressive than men, whereas I'm
probably more aggressive in getting what I want, so maybe I'd do well
against a female salesperson.

Nah. I like the anonymity of negotiating via the internet. Got a great deal
on a condo I sold several years ago, doing almost every word of the
negotiations via email.

I will say that this newsgroup is pretty darn gender-neutral (occasional
RTFM type-language aside, though if used discreetly can be quite a hoot)
when it comes to helping people with their car woes, and that is rewarding.

Peace. Love. More anti-seize; better synthetic oil; thank god the problems
90s Hondas have are heavily limited to the distributor; main relay; a few
minor valves.

 

AAA, sams club, costco, and autobytel all offer alternatives too. pretty
much the same deal all around.

 

"Reports are..."? You mean those articles the newspapers occasionally print
where they send a male and a female shopper into a delaership one after the
other and report their reception?

It's been my experience, many times now, that car salesmen AND saleswomen
are ALL sharks. Women shoppers tend to be an easy mark because they are
less likely to resist pressure, EVEN from saleswomen. The saleswomen are
after your money exactly as the men. No different. It's the money, not you.

Most women are also not used to high-pressure situations of the sort found
in car deals, and do not have the mental makeup to *want* to deal with that
pressure. And then there's the female tendency to want to avoid
confrontation and want to get other people to like them, which makes them
more likely to agree to something just to get a sticky issue past. My wife
was very happy to let me do the searching and negotiating when we were
replacing her MR2.

Women tend as a class to be far, far less knowledgeable about cars than
men, so they are easier to hoodwink. Many men know a *little* about cars,
but most women know ZERO. Just because you are an exception does not mean
most other women are like you. They are most assuredly NOT. Most women have
absolutely ZERO interest in cars.

I've been around engineers most of my life.

You don't know much about guys, it sounds. Porn and vulgar talk may be
distasteful to many women, but neither even remotely suggests "misogyny".
They are part-and-parcel of male life in varying degrees, and has nothing
to do with any respect we feel and exhibit for the women in our lives. The
lower the socioeconomic class, the more prevalent explicitly vulgar
behavior is evident.

This is one reason men had male-only clubs. Before the feminists started
meddling.

Now that's hardly fair. First off, you're making an allegation without
proof or names, and secondarily somehow insinuating that I bear some sort
of responsibility in the matter.

I am not responsible for email somebody else sends you. What if I've never
seen this side of whoever it is you're talking about?

Life is a harsh teacher and hindsight is 20-20. I can (and will) say the
same about other matters that have hurt me deeply as well.

 

with the greatest of respect, there are two scenarios here, not just the
one you describe. the first you've said, and in that respect, hey, give
them what they deserve. the second is that the person on the other end
of this transaction is picking up on something /you/ are bringing to the
table & reacting accordingly. based on our past conversations, i give
that a more than 50% liklihood of that being the case. unfortunately,
if that reaction is received through a "men are mysoginists" filter,
there's going to be a negative feedback loop making the problem worse,
not better. and the situation can quickly get out of control leaving
you with a lot of bad feelings. here's not the place to get into the
head shrinking thing, but as a guy that likes and respects your
engineering mind, i think this is worth looking into. staying where you
are can hold your career back. looking into it can help you move on and
achieve a lot more success an many areas of your life, not just work.

 

I had in mind a specific report, covering a large data sample, showing women
pay X amount more than men, and it was not a small amount.

you.

I understand your point, but my sense is that the salesmen treat women
worse, and still get more money. Go to another dealership, it's the same
thing. A woman is stuck. She has to be much more aggressive than a men.

I think this is true, but see above.

Also true.

You don't know much about men.

Oh yes it does.

Oh now I get it.

The truth is ALWAYS fair, idiot.

I am not requiring you to believe me.

If you want a name, email me.

I did not save the message.

As for your part, you'll probably defend the guy. After all, all he sent me
was a little crude vulgar porn that belittled women, and you feel this is
perfectly right.

In fact, the law says that under slightly different circumstances, it's
quite illegal.

Nice try, but in fact the law says that porn in the workplace; raping one's
wife; assaulting a cadet in front of other cadets at the federal service
academies is illegal.

I have your number, though, Tegger. Like many political issues, it's all
about your problems. Others have not been hurt.

 

This is at least the SECOND time my position has been misquoted. I did not
say "men are misogynists." That both Tegger and you chose to change my
wording this ways says a lot about you, who both happen to be men.

Go back. Read what I wrote.

When dealerships talk as crudely about male sexuality as they do about
women, then you might have some ground on which to stand.

 

I have a very good friend who is a rather successful car salesman. They
UNDOUBTEDLY have different expectations when dealing with a lone woman (or
group of women). I don't think it's malicious, just part of the job. Like
a lion looking at a herd of gazelles and going for the one most likely to be
dinner. Ahem, he would say the same goes for the people that look like they
"just fell off the turnip truck" as he put it. So yeah, I guess this guy
pretty much fits the bill. I think you gotta be an ass to make more money
than your coworkers in this business.

 

i did.

" ...the man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less.
This reality indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of
the women's brains."

that's a pretty damning condemnation. bringing that mindset to /any/
form of negotiation is going to put you at a disadvantage, regardless of
situation.

but elle, some women /are/ just as bad. depends on the situation.
maybe i hang out with the "wrong crowd", but let me assure you, i could
take you to some neighborhoods in san francisco where you'd get worse
from the chicks than the dudes. trust me on that one. my ex used to
"bat for both teams" and some of the lezzies used to give me a real hard
time for playing on what they considered to be "their" turf. but hey, i
know how to compete.

 

Your shoulder chip must be getting bigger.

I have no idea who this guy is, and I have no idea what kind of thing he
sent you. Yet you are making a personal attack on me, claiming that I
support something I have no knowledge of.

Rape? Assault? Are you saying I support these things? Where'd all that come
from?

I'm sorry you're so bitter. Get well soon.

 

They hate PEOPLE that have done their homework. I wish you could have sat
in on some of the deals I've been in. Last one was our Tercel almost 2
years ago. The salesman (Toyota dealership) promised me I could buy it for
$11,000Cdn, on-the-road. After all the foo-fa-raw and talk, I finally get
him to put a number down on paper. He hems and haws, pokes random keys on
his calculator, makes a few frowny faces, and comes in at $12,800.

It took me an hour to get him down to...$11,000. I'll spare you the
details, but there was a lot of talk, and several visits from his manager.

Some time before that I had walked out on a deal for a Corolla at another
Toyota dealership, because they wouldn't include the price of a water pump
($250) within the purchase price. I talked them into doing the timing belt
for free, and a few other things, but they balked at the pump itself. The
next day I got an urgent message from the salesman. Never called him back.
By then I didn't want the car.

Buying a big-ticket item with a flexible price is not for the meek, and
griping about "misogyny" is not ever going to change that.

Nobody's ever got a dime out of me I didn't want to spend. Well, except the
Mazda RX-4 I bought in 1985. I paid too much for that from the private
seller. It was the first one I had come across after looking for some time,
and I wanted it more than I wanted the money.

Problem is, some of those salesladies are as fish-eyed as the men. I've run
into those. The problem is, the saleswoman has an easier time fleecing a
female customer because she's more willing to trust another woman.

 

i do this stuff for a living. not cars, but big ticket. all day long...

they were stupid. good sales people can figure out their customer in a
matter of seconds. if they were smart, they'd have figured you out much
earlier, made the deal & moved on rather than waste effort. time kills
deals.

you did well. my best basic method is to do all my test drives locally
with an iron rule about not buying. then call around & do all my
research & negotiation on the phone, with my wants list. "this is what
i want. i'm shopping on price. how low will you go." buy out of state
if necessary. the phone bit is essential because the sales droid is not
able to leverage your inertia for having driven to see them and is not
able to read your body language. you have an advantage because can hang
up pretty easily too, and the smart ones know that.

i found that within 1 hour of san francisco, all the honda dealers have
the same price [how strange!] 2 hours out however, particularly in the
lower income demographics, it's a whole different game. i just kept
calling further & further out with each successively lower price until i
reached bottom, then drove out to pick it up the same day. even then,
the sales droid tried his luck with "there must be some mistake on that
price". manager. whole charade. started to leave... and i would have
done too. but i got my price. the manager, when he learned where i
lived and that there was /no/ possibility of me being a service
customer, was none too friendly, but hey, that was his problem because i
had my papers & my key.

to expand on that theme, a friend of mine had a specific car purchase in
mind and called around. a local dealer had exactly what he wanted, but
was giving the run-around. ended getting the same car, /exact/ same
car, [same vin number!!!] from another dealer further out of town, for
$3k less - inter-dealer transfer! the phone is the best negotiation
tool ever invented.

so true! but that's not our problem, is it?

 

and they really really hate people who make deals off the internet...
with a passion! no commision, no spiffs, no chance to upsell.

 

Easy time fleecing most men, too, if she has a big rack.

 

LOL

How true!