rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX

My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
since they are "noisy".

They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on the clutch
work but also replacing the bearings inside the transmission ?
That is a lot of work !

Thanks,
Lynn

 

Wow! I'd want somebody to pay me $2800 to replace bearings in a manual
transmission, too! If you haven't heard the noise when you were driving, my
inclination would be to thank them for their concern but I'd risk it. As
long as the gearbox is properly filled with fresh Honda Manual Transmission
Lube (which you should certainly expect to be done) the odds are in your
favor - especially when they put the stakes that high.

I agree on the rest of the work - it makes sense to me. You might want to
ask: they're replacing the pilot bearing also, right? It is part of a proper
clutch replacement.

Mike

 

Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?

I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
running it.

In the alternative, get a second opinion.

I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
manual transmissions but some other experience with large
machinery bearings over many years.

My instructor last week said even on a transmission
overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
changed at specified intervals).

 

Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and whine in such a
manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO). You will have
difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your passenger. Once it
gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it soon, otherwise one
of these years the tranny will lock up on you.

The test -- to be performed by an experienced technician -- is to drive the
car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably close to a wall or
side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch several times
with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

An experienced tech can tell bearing rattle from gear rattle. You should
hear *my* tranny at 271K. Original bearings. Rattly as all get-out, but not
*howly* yet. My guy figures I've got at least a couple of years to go on
it. He says when it really needs attention, even my lousy ears will hear
it!

Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions go bad on me. In
both cases, the bearing noise was deafening. The design of this RWD
drivetrain meant that so long as I stayed out of 5th, the bearing was not
under load, so there was no noise. This tactic enabled me to forestall
transmission replacement until I could afford it. Honda FWD transaxle
designs do not permit such flexibility.

 

snip for brevity

I am sure that elaboration will help.

I was giving a (stinkin') ASE test (one test technicians
take to become certified) answer(!).

 

This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.

 

When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric

 

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric

 

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they

yes, they are both leaking.

Yes, drivable. The oil has been replaced once to my knowledge.

The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
(broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
was properly aligned after that.

We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Thanks,
Lynn

 

I believe you, of course. It makes sense, at least per my
reasoning farther down.

The discussion with the instructor came up because of an ASE
test question:
Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
bearings when overhauling a manual transmission. Technician
B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
transmission. Who is correct?
A. A
B. B
C. Both A and B
D. Neither A nor B

The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion, but
instead this time he elaborated as described above. He also
mentioned bearing costs.

I see that the mainshaft and countershaft bearings purchased
OEM online for my 91 Civic add up to about $108 total. This
I imagine is a small fraction of the total cost of a rebuilt
transmission by a reputable shop, especially one working
with the dealer. Given this and the not too rare reports of
Honda bearing failures, it makes perfect sense to me for a
serious shop (e.g. the dealer or a shop with a reputation)
to replace all the bearings. The risk of a comeback seems
too high.

Perhaps independent shops with somewhat shadetree oriented
mechanics catering to a crowd on a budget and with low
prices etc. might argue as the ASE question does.

If I were the customer, I'd want the independent shop
mechanic to explain this to me and give me a choice: Let
him/er decide if the bearing needed replacement, or just
replace all the tranny bearings, at an additional cost of
xyz.

Though I would think it's not like Honda owners have a
pressing need to obtain rebuilt manual trannies. Do they?
It's serious abuse that generally produces that need, ISTM,
based on my whopping three weeks and one day of manual
trannies course...

 

Transmission bearing failure is due to two things:
1) High side-loading in use, and
2) low oil level.


Side-loading is inevitable, and is present in all gears on a FWD Honda. How
much side-loading a driver imposes on the transmission is a function of how
gently he handles the clutch. If each clutch engagement is accompanied by a
bump, jerk or bang, each one is a hit to the bearings. The more city
driving, the more shifting, the more accelerating, and the more side-load.
Minimizing side-loading dramatically increases bearing life.

Low lubricant allows the bearings to overheat, damaging the hardening on
the bearing surfaces. Excess friction also damages the plastic cage,
allowing the balls to move around more, unbalancing side-load distribution.

Three things you can do to extend the life of your gearbox:
1) Do more highway driving than city (not always possible, of course).
2) Learn to engage the clutch smoothly and gently. This CAN be done while
driving in a spirited and entertaining manner. It is NOT necessary to bang
the clutch to achieve rapid acceleration.
3) Change the tranny lubricant every year, or at least check the level
every year and add as necessary.

 

To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was experienced enough
to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is normal practice to
inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse them or not,
depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace only the 2nd
gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others if they seem OK.
2nd often wears first.

I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition of other
components in determining what kind of care the tranny had in its life.
Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would suggest hard use (or
abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the other parts in
there..

 

That all seems reasonable to me.

Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong).

Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in
there with everything apart, may as well change the
bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that
expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least
for Hondas, they turn out not to be.

But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
(short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).

Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well,
though some may lean more towards one or the other.

Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have
the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I
would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not
necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like
all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes
sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing
differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing
for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC.

 

Abuse can also mean neglect. Many gearboxes and final drives fail due to
low oil level, which is classed as neglect, plain and simple. NObody ever
changes their tranny fluid. Noooo-body. Well 99.9%, anyway.

And if it were me, and I had just spent six hours yanking and disassembling
my tranny, you can bet your last dollar I'd be replacing those bearings no
matter their condition!

 

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to

Sigh. The Honda mechanic got it all back together and drove it. There
was another noisy bearing inside the tranny that he missed before. The
dealership is ripping the tranny apart again (on their nickle this time)
and replacing the 3rd ? 4th ? 5th ? bearing for another $60. And 2 days
more work.

My goal is to get another 3 years out of this car at 10K miles/year. Not a
bad investment, just painfull at the moment. My daughter has been driving
her Mom's 05 Civic 5 speed EX SE for the moment. Now she wants to
swap cars with her Mom ...

Lynn