Read this before you buy

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Tom Adams, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. Tom Adams

    Tom Adams Guest

    ESC is considered to be the greatest advance in safety since the
    seatbelt. It will be required on all 2012 cars, but it's still
    optional or not available on some 2010 and 2011 models:
    Tom Adams, Sep 30, 2010
  2. Tom Adams

    Dillon Pyron Guest

    ESC is for idiots who drive their top heavy SUV at speeds that are
    beyond their ability to control them.

    Yes, the seatbelt was a major, major safety component, but many of the
    recent "safety" devices are for people who are too stupid to take
    responsility for thier actions or too stupid to understand the limits
    of thier abilities and the capabilities of their cars.

    - dillon I am not invalid

    Toby (Tri-Umph That's the Sweet Truth)
    March 1998 - June 2010
    What a dog. What a dog!
    Dillon Pyron, Oct 4, 2010
  3. Tom Adams

    Dave Garrett Guest

    I was not entirely surprised but definitely dismayed to discover, via a
    passing comment in a recent thread, that TPMS has apparently become
    federally mandated on all new cars. More complexity, more cost, more
    unnecessary weight. Guess I'm going to keep driving older cars until I
    either can't get parts anymore to keep them running, or I get too old to
    remember or care what real driving used to be like.

    Dave "get off my lawn"
    Dave Garrett, Oct 4, 2010
  4. Tom Adams

    ACAR Guest

    check the hype re. ABS
    it was supposed to be the greatest safety advance since the
    ACAR, Oct 8, 2010
  5. Tom Adams

    ACAR Guest

    Simple TPMS systems operate by using the ABS system to detect
    differences in tire rotation and add no weight, only minimal
    complexity and that idiot light on the dash. My 1998 Sienna had that.
    In 250,000 miles it provided useful information twice and probably
    saved a tire once. However, it failed to detect small pressure drops
    due to slow leaks. I'd find these first.
    My 2010 Sienna has a new TPMS; using detectors in each wheel, costing
    me $38 each when installed by The Tire Rack. I have to get these
    sensors initialized at the dealership before they'll work Presumably,
    this new system will detect slow leaks. We'll see.
    ACAR, Oct 8, 2010
  6. Tom Adams

    jim beam Guest


    e.s.c. hype somehow completely misses the fact that since the exploder
    fiasco, not only frod but many other suv manufacturers have transitioned
    to lower vehicles with wider wheel bases and even more importantly,
    independent rear suspension. with that and mandatory driver skid
    training, you could do without e.s.c. tpms and abs too.

    an interesting abs quote:

    "Risk compensation

    Anti-lock brakes are the subject of some experiments centred around risk
    compensation theory, which asserts that drivers adapt to the safety
    benefit of ABS by driving more aggressively. In a Munich study, half a
    fleet of taxicabs was equipped with anti-lock brakes, while the other
    half had conventional brake systems. The crash rate was substantially
    the same for both types of cab, and Wilde concludes this was due to
    drivers of ABS-equipped cabs taking more risks, assuming that ABS would
    take care of them, while the non-ABS drivers drove more carefully since
    ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation. A
    similar study was carried out in Oslo, with similar results."

    jim beam, Oct 8, 2010
  7. Tom Adams

    Tony Harding Guest

    Was there *any* data to support that <ridiculous> conclusion?

    So we all drive more recklessly because we have seat belts? Door crash
    bars? Rear view mirror? ...
    Tony Harding, Oct 8, 2010
  8. Tom Adams

    jim beam Guest

    the cite was quoted in the linked version.

    technically, we almost certainly do.
    jim beam, Oct 8, 2010
  9. We should also consider the alternate theory that ABS doesn't do shit.
    Oh yeah, theoretically it provides greater control when braking, but
    in the real world I don't think it has ever been shown to reduce
    Gordon McGrew, Oct 14, 2010
  10. Tom Adams

    jim beam Guest

    abs is great for my grandmother. her reactions are so slow, and her
    vehicle control so poor, anything that stops her locking the wheels and
    drifting off into oblivion is going to be an improvement.

    similarly, it's great for planes where the systems react slow and
    there's no feedback for the pilot, trains where the the systems react
    slow and there's no feedback for the driver, and trucks, well, you get
    the idea.

    cars though, it really depends on the driver. and the road conditions.
    if it's snowy or muddy, i don't want abs. it it's icy, and i'm only
    driving in straight lines, i probably do. if it's rainy, maybe i do,
    maybe i don't. if it's dry, i definitely don't.

    and finally, don't forget, the dirty little secret of modern "crash
    safe" cars is that because they're so much heavier, you just can't
    control or stop the things like you can a lighter car - they're getting
    up there with trucks and trains. "crash safe" also means "crash likely".
    jim beam, Oct 14, 2010
  11. She has to know to steer while she's braking, which I doubt she does.
    She would just hang onto the wheel for dear life and let the car go
    straight into the obstacle ahead.
    Elmo P. Shagnasty, Oct 14, 2010
  12. Tom Adams

    Dillon Pyron Guest

    Same with DRL. Note that collissions that were supposed to be
    prevented by DRL have returned to about the same (using the miles
    driven quanitier) as 2 years prior to the major use. Motorcycles
    don't seem to be any more immune to getting whacked by "us" even
    though they all have headlights on.

    The highmount brakelight doesn't seem to have reduced rear end

    Stupid people adapt stupid behavior to suit conditions. Highmount
    brakelight? Just get used to it. ABS? Start driving into situations
    where it won't help. et cetera, et cetera, et cetera (thank you, Mr.

    - dillon I am not invalid

    Toby (Tri-Umph That's the Sweet Truth)
    March 1998 - June 2010
    What a dog. What a dog!
    Dillon Pyron, Oct 14, 2010
  13. Tom Adams

    jim beam Guest

    which is what she's done. but cars are generally ok in front-rear
    collisions. it's pretty much impossible to offer equivalent protection
    for side impacts.
    jim beam, Oct 14, 2010
  14. Tom Adams

    jim beam Guest

    i know i sound like a crazy whack-job, but drl's are courtesy of our
    friends in the oil business, not based on safety research.

    drl's run at ~80W. fuel conversion is ~30%. that's an extra 260W worth
    of gasoline required every time you switch on your car. multiply that
    by the ~135,000,000 cars on the road, and suddenly, you're selling a lot
    more gasoline.

    oh, and let's ignore the nimrods who, because they have drl's and can
    see the road, albeit dimly, don't think to turn on their lights at night

    but it means people can drive with two bulbs out, not just one!
    jim beam, Oct 14, 2010
  15. "jim beam" wrote
    Oncoming cars that are dark in color I have trouble seeing initially unless
    their headlights (or "parking" lights) are on. Dark cars tend to blend in
    with the background and/or the gray road surface. I spot light colored cars
    at a distance much more easily -- DRL's or not. My current and previous two
    cars are white -- I like to be seen!
    Howard Lester, Oct 14, 2010
  16. Tom Adams

    ACAR Guest

    On Oct 13, 11:39 pm, Gordon McGrew <>
    I'll bet ABS has benefit in pickups and other vehicles where balanced
    braking is difficult to achieve. Jim Beam correctly points out that
    there are situations that call for wheel lock-up. But even on a dry
    road there are some vehicles that defy 4-wheel threshold braking
    regardless of driver skill.
    ACAR, Oct 15, 2010
  17. Tom Adams

    Tony Harding Guest

    And that, IMHO, is the essence of so many changes; sound good on paper,
    might look good in controlled studies, but once applied across the board
    become part of the white noise. If we cycled them in/out every 3/4
    years, people might continue to notice them; but I'd never suggest that.
    Tony Harding, Oct 15, 2010
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