(quit in the heat) 91 Honda Civic

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jay
  • Start date Start date
J

Jay

I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
busy intersection.

The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
(possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?

Jay C.
 
Thanks, I'm in denial about the timing belt...please don't let it be that,
please don't let it be that...:-)

We just drove 500 highway miles yesterday without any problems. I guess we
should be lucky that things didn't go haywire while we were 250 miles away
from home.

Does the 91 Civic have a piston/valve killer engine in the event that the
timing belt broke? Are the clearances that close?

Thanks again,

Jay C.


 
I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
busy intersection.

The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
(possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?

Jay C.
Click to expand...

If you are SURE it sounds different, I'd pull the valve cover and see if
the timing belt broke. It's a pretty simple job to visually inspect.

A COMMON problem with Hondas and the heat, is the Main Relay failing. This
usually results in the car failing to restart after driving, not just
quitting. It's a dinstinct possibility however if the TB is good.
 
Jay said:
I pulled the valve cover off and visually inspected the belt. It appeared
to be laying in place around the cam pulley so I wiggled the part of the
belt that I could reach which was running toward the crank. It seemed to be
in place and not broken. Is there another simple but better way to test the
belt other than what I did?

The engine doesn't really sound "free-wheeling" but more like spark or fuel
problems. Maybe when the temperature outside comes down from ludicrous to
insane, I'll go out to work on the car some more. In the mean time if you
have any other suggestions please pass them along.
Click to expand...

If you still have the valve cover off, have someone kick the starter
briefly. If the belt doesn't turn, that's it. Alternatively, pull the
distributor cap and do the same thing. If the rotor doesn't turn,
timing belt. The civic has an interference engine, but at miminal speed
it's unlikely there is any damage, valve springs will settle cam
in clear position.

Given the hot conditions, it could very well be the main relay, typical
of this year honda. It may start once it cools down. When you turn
the key to on position(not start), listen for the fuel pump to turn on
for about 2-3 seconds, at which time the engine light should go off.
If this doesn't happen, it's probably the relay.

http://members.rogers.com/john-ings/MainRelay.HTM
 
Jay said:
I just got back from towing my daughter's 91 Civic DX back to the house. It
is 103 degrees in Salt Lake City today and the car quit in the middle of a
busy intersection.

The engine turns over and cranks just fine but it does sound a little
different while cranking. It sounds a little more like it is free wheeling
(possibly) rather than turning under compression. I guess that could be
because of a couple of things....but not being an expert on this particular
model I could sure use some advice. Help! What to check first?

Jay C.
Click to expand...

-----------------------

Jay,
Take off the distributor cap and turn the engine over. A broken belt
won't turn the camshaft, so the rotor will remain stationary. High heat
has probably caused your Main relay to fry the solder joints to death.

http://members.rogers.com/john-ings/MainRelay.HTM

Let us know what you find!

'Curly'
--

To REPLY: You must remove two underscores from the return address to
reply directly . . . . . .

Regarding stage performances: When everyone else has finished playing,
you should not play any notes you have left over. -
 
"Jay C." said:
I pulled the valve cover off and visually inspected the belt. It appeared
to be laying in place around the cam pulley so I wiggled the part of the
belt that I could reach which was running toward the crank. It seemed to be
in place and not broken. Is there another simple but better way to test the
belt other than what I did?
Click to expand...

It sounds like the belt is OK.
Simply put, the belt turns the camshaft. If the cam turns when the engine
is cranking, the belt is OK. Have someone crank the engine briefly while
observing the cam.
The distributor is driven by the end of the cam. One could remove the dist
cap and observe the rotor (while cranking) just to ensure everything is OK
there too.

One thing we haven't discussed is spark!
If you don't have it, it won't run!
You could have a failed ignitor or ignition coil if you don't have spark.
IIRC,Ignitor failure is not uncommon for this era Civic.

In a nutshell, if no fuel, probably Main Relay. If no spark, probably Ignitor.
 
Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it appeared to
be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.

This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it too. I
removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope, the rotor
isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the distributor is
fried?

I guess that is why the starting sounds a little different than normal;
because it isn't "free-wheeling" but it doesn't sound normal either.

Next step?

Jay C.
 
Jay C. said:
Okay, I visually inspected the timing belt last evening and it appeared to
be okay. It was in place and I could not wiggle it loose.
Good.

This morning I went out to listen for the fuel pump. Yep, I heard it too. I
removed the distributor cap to see if things were turning. Nope, the rotor
isn't moving when the engine is cranked. I suppose that the distributor is
fried?
Click to expand...

Bad.
Are you SURE you inspected the *timing* belt? (Sorry, but I have no idea of
your mechanical knowledge.)
 
I pulled the valve cover off and then pulled away the plastic belt cover so
I could tug on the belt. I even put a 12 mm socket on the cam pulley to see
if it would turn and maybe show me the belt problem. That pulley wouldn't
turn very easily at all, so I didn't force it. I concluded from that, that
the belt was still in tact. Should I do something else to confirm the belt
condition?

Jay C.
 
I didn't try that last night but I just did. The cam DOESN'T turn. So,
that indicates that either the belt is broken and jammed down on the crank
area so I can't see it or that the starter isn't engaging (doubtful) or...
Hmmm. What else? Keep up the good work you guys and we'll get to the
bottom of this yet.

Jay C.
 
Jay C. said:
I spent a little more time this morning investigating the car (in a cooler
garage). I can now see that the timing belt is missing several teeth in one
place as it loops over the top of the cam pulley.

Yesterday my daughter said that she was coming to a slow stop at a traffic
light and the next thing she knew, the car had stalled and she couldn't
restart it.

Perhaps the belt skipped position (hopefully not enough to do any damage).
Now I think I can explain how the engine sounded when I tried to restart it.
The timing sounded like it was off.

I will be changing the belt starting today. How do I look for possible
damage to valves and pistons without pulling the head?

Jay C.
Click to expand...

install the new belt and necessary components then check the compression on
all cyclinders.
 
Thanks,

I am in the process of doing the deal. I have to decide if I want to do a
valve and head cleaning job while I am this far along. The car has nearly
1/4 million miles on it.

Jay
 
Jay C. said:
Thanks,

I am in the process of doing the deal. I have to decide if I want to do a
valve and head cleaning job while I am this far along. The car has nearly
1/4 million miles on it.

Jay
Click to expand...

you may find if you rebuild the head, the lower end of the engine may get
stressed more with the additional compression and quickly fail. Ive seen this
happen on several vehichles with many miles on the odo, with a new /fresh
cyclinder head.

should you decide to do the head work, its not much more work to slap new
piston rings and rod bearings in the thing.
all assuming your capable of the task.
 
Jay C. said:
Yeah, you're right. I will probably leave things alone if it is possible.

The biggest problem I am having right now is trying to get the drive belt
pulley-crank bolt loose. I can't take the bottom timing belt cover off to
finish the R & R of the timing belt until I do.

Hopefully I can round up an impact driver. :-(

Jay C.
Click to expand...

I had incredible difficulty removing mine as well as others, The impact wrench
with a short 15ft of hose and 160 psi finally broke the darn thing loose after
snapping 4 sockets, and 1 extension. try to use no extensions and a good
impact socket, it makes all the difference.

you will most likely have to anchor the flywheel or flexplate to the
transmission using some metal strapping to keep the engine from turing over.
someone on the web has a picture of the "flywheel anchor" on the web.
good luck
 
Well, as you said, since you went that far already...

If you're going to keep the car and you can afford it all now, may was
well do it all NOW rather than later.

John D.
 
PostScript.

I forgot to add that 250,000 miles is a lot...do what you can now on
the head with that many miles on the car...at least you won't have to
worry about head problems for a long while...it'll probably be
something else!

John D.
 
Umm. Is the pulley-to-crankshaft bolt a left or right handed? It is so
friggin tight that I might have go to Pep Boys and buy one of there
specialty PowerBuilt tools to help remove it. I borrowed an industrial
strength electric impact driver but have been assuming the the bolt is right
handed.

Some of the other suggestions on the Net were to use the starter in short
bursts to help break loose the bolt. I don't like the idea but their setup
suggests that the bolt is a left handed one. The crank rotates ccw so if a
breaker bar were anchored in any location, the starter action would tend to
tighten the bolt if it were a right hand thead.

Could someone make this clear for me? Is it righty-tighty or lefty-loosey?

Thanks,

Jay C.
 
Okay, it looks like I will have to make a special tool out of an old bed
rail or some other angle iron which spans the drive belt pulley face and has
a couple of holes for bolts to go through the pulley (gently tightened).
Four feet long should do it. I'll need to allow another hole for the
socket/short breaker bar which will be anchored on the floor or engine
compartment. Easy does it, so I don't bend the pulley when I use the four
foot angle iron for my new lever/wrench.

The alternative of pulling off the starter and wedging a large screw driver
into the flywheel seems like too much work.

....pray for me ;-)

Jay
 
Jay C. said:
Okay, it looks like I will have to make a special tool out of an old bed
rail or some other angle iron which spans the drive belt pulley face and has
a couple of holes for bolts to go through the pulley (gently tightened).
Four feet long should do it. I'll need to allow another hole for the
socket/short breaker bar which will be anchored on the floor or engine
compartment. Easy does it, so I don't bend the pulley when I use the four
foot angle iron for my new lever/wrench.

The alternative of pulling off the starter and wedging a large screw driver
into the flywheel seems like too much work.

...pray for me ;-)

Jay
Click to expand...

I used a piece of angle steel with 2 holes in it, securing the flywheel to the
transmission housing. that kept the crank from turning but still that darn
bolt is tight, a long piece of pipe over a 36 in breaker bar just managed to
snap my extensions, all of them, and all my sockets. eventually the bolt
did come out as noted before. impact wrench, impact socket, 160psi, and as
short of hose as possible (15ft) to the impact wrench.

its standard thread. lefty loosey.
 
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