Need advice... 95 Civic dies and won't start, but then starts and is fine.

Thread title about sums it up. Seems to happen as part of the warm up
process???
1st time was when I left the house and got about 5 miles down the road.
This morning (very cold), I started and let it idle for about 10 minutes.
Pulled out of the driveway and got 50 feet and it died. NO stutter,
stumble, misfire... just plain quits. Key off and back ON runs the fuel
pump OK. Crank all you want, but not a single fire. I get out and push the
car back to my driveway. Then try the key and it starts up and runs fine.
Same thing the first time it happened. Traveling along at 55 to 60mph and
it died. Coasted into local gas station. Tried several times to start it,
but would not fire. I was listening for fuel pump that time, but couldn't
here it (too much noise around me, this time I could here it for sure). So
I got out and popped the hood, looked for a fuel pressure relief to just see
if there was fuel pressure but didn't see one. Found the fuse boxes and
quickly checked fuses. Got back inside the car and was digging out my cell
phone when I decided to crank it one more time. Cranked it and it started
instantly and idled perfect.

I'm hoping you guys know of a "typical" problem that causes this exact
symptom. I do need to replace the thermostat... not getting very good heat
and it's running on the cool side. I don't think it's relevent. Temp gauge
was up a good quarter this morning when it died. Then of course, on the
highway it goes back to near COLD. But so far, once the car dies and
restarts, it runs without failing for the rest of the day! I have no idea
how I'm gonna find the problem if it starts and runs fine after. I don't
usually like to "throw parts" at a problem, but sometimes that's the route
to go ; )

All advice much appreciated!
In2

 

Hi

Next time it happens, see if banging on the side panel near your left
knee helps. I am not suggesting that be a permanent fix but it is
often an indication of the main relay being bad - a very common honda
problem. Once you determine it is indeed the main relay, you can
actually fix it by resoldering its connections.

Tegger, an often contributing member of this group, has set up a very
nice site you'll want to check out:
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/MainRelay.HTM

Hope this helps.
Remco

 

Thanks, and other suggestions still welcome (just in case) !!!

I also looked at the site you mentioned.

My next questions are:
Does the Civic have same relay location?
Is it up in the dash or under the side panel? Or both?

Thanks to any and all!
In2

 

If is usually mounted near the fuse box on a bracket. I can see the one
on my wife's 95 Integra by just looking up into dashboard. Ours in
mounted along the outside wall - not the fire wall. Suspect yours is
mounted similarly.

If you are familiar with soldering electronic components, I'd take the
relay out and reflow the connections to see if that fixes it.

Here is a picture of the relay mounted in a car:
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm
Regards,
Remco

 

If is usually mounted near the fuse box on a bracket. I can see the one
on my wife's 95 Integra by just looking up into dashboard. Ours in
mounted along the outside wall - not the fire wall. Suspect yours is
mounted similarly.

If you are familiar with soldering electronic components, I'd take the
relay out and reflow the connections to see if that fixes it.
Regards,
Remco

 

main relay
ignitor/distributor problem
ignition switch

 

Thanks Remco!

I've already found 2 fuse panels under the hood, and wonder if it might be
out there... but then again, total number of fuses wasn't that many so it
would surprise me to find more inside. But it's cold out here these days,
and my back is killing me. I did at least get the thermostat and lower
control arm bushing changed. I saw the gound connections. They don't look
too too bad, but I thinks the bolt prefers to break instead of loosen so I
let it be for now. I'll check for resistance (voltage drop method) when I
get a chance. I didn't have my good meter.

I was looking at the tegger site again. I realize my symptoms don't quite
match, as I do get the fuel pump to run it's cycle, and it also never starts
and stalls.

This really kinda sucks, as I wanted to have my wife start running this car
to work and back. But I guess I'm gonna have to do the old "timing light
and multiple test leads out the hood and in the door" trick and keep driving
this thing. That can usually draw some conclusions, except of course when
it just leaves you hauling your equipment all over the place for no reason
because it maybe won't do it again for a week, month, or ever? ; ) But I'm
sure if my wife takes it, it will bother!

Next question...
Any sites around that have good schematics to peak at? I don't have a book,
and would rather junk a car than buy a haynes rag ; ) Or does anyone know
how to unlock the codes on the old alldate disks? I lost the code to my
disk and I guess alldata went out of business with the disk deal.

 

Thanks SoCalMike! I appreciate the imput.

I've been thinking about the distributor. I'm planning to hook up my timing
light, run the wires from the hood around the door jam and have it inside
the vehicle. Then when it bothers, I can check for spark.

For what it's worth, when it dies the fuel pump will still runs and the MIL,
oil, temp,... all come on indicating "the key is on" for at least most of
the system. I need a good schematic to figure out if all that still leaves
a pole or two not connecting. Same for the main relay. I don't seem to fit
the "typical classic" symptom completely. But I certainly will see what I
can do there. I have a good meter (snapon vantage, but no KV : ( ) and am
hoping to figure out exactly how to be hooked up to check the primary side
so as to isolate the problem if it is loss of spark, and at the same time be
checking for ignition feed?

All help much appreciated! Short of thermostat, control arm bushing, and
rear brake job (disk, rust bolts, fun...) my Honda experience is ZERO! I
may need to do the alldata online thing, but I HATE that because it leaves
the information here and the car there, and I always run into print issues
that just makes it too slow and difficult to deal with.

 

http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CivicManual/index.html

 

You could hook up a small 12V bulb across your coil's primary and see
if the ignitor does its job (it is supposed to flash if ok). Once it
fails you will al least be able to determine if it is before or after
the coil.

Ignitors do fail from time to time -- not sure if they have an
intermittent failure mode because it looks like it is a darlington
transistor to me.
It is into the distributor. You'll see it as a module that has four
wires attached to it - it is mounted on a bracket that comes off with
two screws.

Maybe also check the coil, as the insulation can break down and it will
arc through the case to the distrubutor so perhaps remove it and
visually inspect it for cracks. I guess that could be an intermittent
failure mode.

I have a schematic -- it is out of a haynes manual. This one is fairly
accurate - let me know; I could email you a copy (schematic, that is)
if you need it.

Regards,
Remco

 

Make sure it is a small bulb.
A large one, large is more than 100mA (.0.1A),
can kill a good ignitor.
Don't ask how I know this.
Better to use a LED which will only draw 15~20mA (0.015A).
And while it is mainly an darlington, there is an amplifer
to sense coil saturation.
Terry

 

Good point on the max current.

An LED with a 470 ohm resistor in series will run about 20mA at 12V or
so.
That current at running duty cycle can probably be seen on an LED.
Remco

 

In2hoppn wrote:

From my website article on the Honda designed Rover 216 GSi at
www.gcw.org.uk/rover/igniter.htm :

You may like to download this ZIP file which contains a drawing,
a photo and a text file.

The drawing is of the parts and their interconnections with wire
colours etc. and a fault finding guide. The drawing is produced
at 300 dpi and will translate to print a full sheet of 8.5"x11" or A4.
The text file describes how to make the LED probe and the
fault-finding it can carry out.

The white wire on T1 of the igniter module goes directly to the
tachometer. So if the engine dies and the tacho shows zero
then the module isn't providing output pulses.

Finally (my hobby horse) take the distributor cap off (mark the leads'
positions) wash it up in the sink with detergent and then seal the surface
with anything handy that is a known permanent water repellent after drying
it. A smidgeon of silicone grease rubbed in and polished off will do.

HTH

 

Could a similar thing be happening with my turn signal relay and is it just
as easy to reflow the solder? I have noticed recently that my 92 civic when
below freezing often buzzes for a moment when I use the right directional
before the car cabin in warm. After it warms up - no buzz.

Thanks in advance,
Mike H

 

If you can learn how to solder, you can also learn how to use a meter.

Measure the 12v coming out the output side of the contacts. If OK, your
done. The relay is fine.

If there's no 12V coming out, check that there 12V coming to the relay.
if OK, then check that there's 12v to the coil.

Leave the damn solder alone until you make the tests. The solder isn't where
relays fail. It's almost always the contacts and sometimes the coil.

 

That's another question I had! It normally starts so quick and easy it's
hard to tell, but I shall pay attention if I can remember! Can one expect
to see the engine rmp at "starter cranking speed" register on the tach??
I'm betting it shows zero, but don't know at what rpm it should actually
start to register.

I didn't think it would be cap, wires,...etc., as moisture doesn't seem to
bother it and it never seems to skip or stumble. But I'll probably address
the standard tune up issues along the way here ; )

Thanks to all for all replies. I haven't had time to deal with this yet.
But I'm saving all the links and suggestions. I'll try to get back for an
update when/if I ever get it fixed!
In2hoppn

 

Well, when it dawned on me, same as you above, I looked and I
thought I could see it just 'bouncing' off the stop when the cap
was the problem.

No, but this is special moisture which steals energy from the spark
and only appears when the engine is warming up. There is still
HV going up the lead to the plug but it may be insufficient to fire
it.

Clean the cap. It is FREE to do and could fix the problem. What have
you got to lose?

Always good to do.

 

UPDATE It finally died while I was driving it and had equipment hooked up
to it! (Now I can stop driving it around with more $ worth of equipment
inside it than the car itself is worth!)

It's definitely cold weather related, and apparently as the distributor is
warming up, it dies. Then, I imagine, heat continues to transfer into the
distributor... 5 minutes waiting time... and all is fine again. Never
bothers again when fully warm. From cold, it's hit or miss whether it will
be a problem or not. Never had a problem from spring, summer, and fall...
only since winter came and I've been driving it.

I had my Vantage meter attached to primary side of coil, and timing light
attached to secondary. When it dies, I lose both signals.

I NEED AN ICM. IGNITION CONTROL MODULE
HELP! This is a charity job. $178 is WAY TOO much to spend at autozone!
My local boneyard doesn't have a distributor... gave me a price of $150 to
$200 if they can locate one! WHAT? Well I guess that includes a bunch of
stuff in it that I don't need. If I can locate one myself, I doubt they'll
break out just the ignitor for me.

Some kindhearted fellow Honda wrencher got one of these? It's a 95 Civic
with 1.5 VTEC. My understanding is it's the same part from 94 (not D15B7,
D15B8 OK), 95, 96, 97 (including 1.6) (also VTEC or not), and who know what
else???
Wells number is JP129? I'd pay shipping cost plus a small fee if you gotta
get something for it (charity job for my efforts, I can charge something for
parts if I have to).

Hopefully, someone can help me out. I have yet to check ebay. Owner will
just unload this car if I can't fix it real cheap. I buy complete parts
cars for way less than this! But, I can't wait for one to come through the
auction... not to mention the weather here in New Hampshire right now!

In2hoppn

reply here or reply direct... but not worldpath anymore... it's metrocast
instead...