"May Contain up to 10% Ethanol"

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Runtime Error, Aug 26, 2008.

  1. Over the last few months, all the gas stations in my area have quit selling
    pure gas-- just the adulterated stuff. You can't find 100% petrol any more.

    As the percentage of alcohol in my tank ('07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan)
    increased, my mileage decreased-- consistently 10%-12% less than it used to
    be on the same 400 mile round trip I make on the interstate 2-3 times a
    month. Used to get in the low 30's-- now get in high 20's....

    Is this the great "fool the public" scam or what-- paying for adulterated
    fuel that doesn't give you full value??
    Runtime Error, Aug 26, 2008
  2. Runtime Error

    jim beam Guest

    the bit i like is actually paying /more/ for the privilege of this lower
    energy/lower mileage gasoline!
    jim beam, Aug 26, 2008
  3. Runtime Error

    Just Me Guest

    Don't worry Obama is going to change all that. Or at least that's what I
    thought I heard him say in a commercial. And we all know that politicians
    always tell the truth.
    Just Me, Aug 26, 2008
  4. Runtime Error

    C. E. White Guest

    I don't know where you live, but the addition of ethanol may be a government
    mandate. It is also possible the price of the fuel is lower than it would
    have been for 100% gasoline (but I don't know how you would tell, since the
    price of gasoline fluctuates on a daily basis). I am surprised you are
    claiming a 10%+ reduction in fuel economy. A small reduction is usual.
    Theoretically ethanol has about 85% of the energy in gasoline. So a 90%
    gasoline/10% ethanol blend should have about 98.5% as much energy as 100%
    gasoline. Assuming your car is operating properly, the fuel economy should
    only go down by at most 3%. Older, carbureted cars, can have real problems
    with 10% ethanol fuels, but modern fuel injected cars as new as your should
    handle it easily with a minimal effect on fuel economy. In some cases the
    reduction is even less that would be predicted by the reduction in energy
    content because the ethanol tainted fuel sometimes has a higher octane
    rating than 100% regular gasoline, which allows the engines PCM to advance
    the timing and partially compensate for the lower energy content by
    increasing the engine's efficiency slightly.

    At any rate, the fuel is what it is. It is not "adulterated." If the
    addition of ethanol is mandated by the government, you can't blame the fuel
    dealers. If it isn't, then you need to shop around for 100% gasoline
    (whatever that is - since gasoline itself is a blend of numerous compounds).

    I suspect if you keep careful records, you will find you mileage has not
    decreased by 10%. As for the price, unless you can find 100% gasoline in
    your area, how do you know that they aren't charging less for the E10 than
    for 100% gasoline?

    C. E. White, Aug 26, 2008
  5. Runtime Error

    SMS Guest

    No one ever tried to market the 10% Ethanol fuel as better than pure
    petrol. It's only because of the federal tax credit that it's being used
    as an octane enhancer (other than in states where it's being used as an
    alternative to MTBE).
    SMS, Aug 26, 2008
  6. Runtime Error

    Rocinante Guest

    Middle America and Southern Democrats are not going to vote for a
    black guy.
    Rocinante, Aug 26, 2008
  7. Runtime Error

    SMS Guest

    They vote for black guys all the time. The Dixiecrats aren't voting for
    Obama, but they didn't vote for a white Catholic North easterner either.

    It'll all come down to Ohio and Florida again. Obama probably needs one
    of them to win, while McCain needs both. However this time there are a
    lot more formerly red states as toss-ups than in the past, so it's
    conceivable that Obama could win without Ohio and Florida.

    As of now, without toss-up states, and Ohio and Florida going to McCain,
    Obama is barely ahead at 273-265.


    With toss up states it's Obama 228, McCain 174, and 136 toss up.


    Obama should have chosen a Jewish Cuban woman from Florida as his
    running mate. Maybe McCain will do just that.

    Hopefully people will begin to get mad at what the Republicans are doing
    to the U.S..
    SMS, Aug 26, 2008
  8. Runtime Error

    zonie Guest

    Obama is going to fix that too? We will be lucky to have cars if tha
    jack-ass gets elected.

    Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.honda
    More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.htm
    zonie, Aug 27, 2008
  9. Runtime Error

    jim beam Guest

    that's not true. when ethanol mix first came out, the oilco propaganda
    was all about "higher octane", which is technically true, but highly
    misleading since octane != energy content.

    it's not being used for that - it's being used to lower energy content,
    and thus decrease mileage, all while being subsidized to do so courtesy
    of the tax payer. you can bet your sweet a$$ the oilco's would be up in
    arms if ethanol was somehow to their disadvantage.
    jim beam, Aug 27, 2008
  10. Runtime Error

    Enrico Fermi Guest

    I am convinced unhappily that after the last few years of our economy being
    looted by both Dems and Reps, bankers, real estate speculators, oil cos, oil
    speculators, various mobsters (domestic and international), lunatic
    terrorists and the military/industrial complex, that our prospects as free
    citizens are not so good right now. We have voted for and elected crooks and
    morons since 1968. Ron Paul is my Congressman so I'm hoping we'll be OK for
    a time, while the rest of of the USA circles the drain. There is a good
    chance that we Texans are just as naive as the rest of the flock. Bless us
    Enrico Fermi, Aug 27, 2008
  11. Runtime Error

    Tegger Guest

    That there's an mileage hit is incidental to everything else surrounding

    As a general rule, refiners and retailers refused to use ethanol until
    it was forced on them, and until the government made ethanol cheaper for
    the oil companies to buy by taking money out of your pocket to give to

    It was forced on the refiners originally by environmental lobby group
    pressure, and very lately, by the farm lobby and by companies that
    benefit from the consequences of government regulations (think ADM). Now
    it's national security that's also supposed to be a reason for ethanol

    The refiners and retailers can't use TEL, MMT or MTBE anymore. There's
    not much left after that, at least not at an acceptable price.

    Ethanol is extremely expensive both as an additive and a fuel, in
    addition to the storage problems its corrosiveness causes. With
    considerable price pressure having driven most of the margin out of
    motor fuels, refiners and retailers usually wait until everybody is
    pushed into the same boat, so they all face the same costs.

    TEL and MMT have little effect on the energy content of gasoline because
    they're added in such small amounts. MTBE and ethanol, on the other
    hand, are added in very large amounts, displacing gasoline in the mix.
    Add to that the fact that ethanol is partially oxidized to begin with,
    and you lose lots of usable energy.
    Tegger, Aug 27, 2008
  12. Runtime Error

    Elle Guest

    Congress and the then President passed the law ultimately
    requiring a certain amount of ethanol in some parts of the
    U.S., all in an effort to reduce air pollution, which it
    does. One can blame only one's own choices in voting.

    Those unhappy with having to buy an ethanol blend of
    gasoline need to read reports of how awful the air was in
    certain parts of the country prior to the Clean Air Act.
    Elle, Aug 27, 2008
  13. Runtime Error

    Tegger Guest

    Yes, that's how lobby groups act; they get laws and regulations passed,
    thereby using the power of the state to effect their desired changes.

    I always liked H. L. Mencken's famous quote, "Democracy is the theory that
    the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

    The thing is, all three monitored pollutants were already drastically
    reduced (~90%) well before ethanol became common.

    Oxygenates (as MTBE) were originally intended to lower carbon monoxide
    emissions, and were first added in Colorado in the '70s or '80s. Ethanol is
    just another oxygenate, and a damned difficult one at that.

    MTBE was at first mandated, then prohibited on the basis of groundwater
    contamination. Since just about all underground tanks are (by law) now
    double-hulled, have very elaborate leak detection systems, and are now non-
    metallic, maybe it's time to phase MTBE back in. The corn lobby and ADM
    won't be happy, but just watch food prices fall.
    Tegger, Aug 27, 2008
  14. Runtime Error

    Elle Guest

    You see lobbyists making laws. I see members of Congress,
    the President, and those who elect them doing so.
    We disagree.
    Elle, Aug 27, 2008
  15. So i skipped all the politics, and to answer the question.

    My friends civic use to get 400+ miles to teh tank its first few weeks
    and it slowly went down as it wore in. after a year he was doing mid
    300s and it stayed there ever since. that might be ur case too, or
    maybe not.
    nadeem.ajmeri, Aug 27, 2008
  16. Runtime Error

    howard Guest

    Hopefully people will begin to get mad at what the Republicans are doing
    Begin? They're not upset yet? If they voted for this moron, they got what
    they asked for.
    If McCain wins and gets his way we may get all we want for $6-7 per gallon.
    howard, Aug 28, 2008
  17. After they have been paid off by lobbyists.

    He's right except in a very few pollution prone cities.

    So the politicos just throw out the baby(s) with the bath water and make
    us all pay...

    Grumpy AuContraire, Aug 28, 2008

  18. Uh, if it was a new car, the mileage should go up as the car "wears in."


    (Who's turdbox '83 Civic goes over 400 miles in mixed driving on a 10.6
    gallon tank)
    Grumpy AuContraire, Aug 28, 2008

  19. <giggle>

    I can promise you if O'bammy 'n gang get in, insane Al Gore 'n company
    will have firm footholds in the new admin and higher gas prices will be
    a certainty.

    After all, it is the dems that have fiercely resisted new oil
    exploration, nuclear plants etc.

    Yep, youse got you doo doo together awright...
    Grumpy AuContraire, Aug 28, 2008
  20. Runtime Error

    Tegger Guest

    Yep. If there's a governmental tit to suck on, the lobbyists will be right
    in there like little piglets attacking a sow. ADM didn't get all the spoils
    they did by sitting on their hands.

    Even pollution-prone cities experienced significant reductions in monitored
    pollutants prior to ethanol. Computerized fuel injection, oxygen sensors
    and 3-way cats did all that.

    OBD-II and ethanol have created only very small gains compared to the major
    advances already achieved by 1991.

    And remember that gasoline-powered automobiles are only one source of
    pollution. Other major sources with at least as great an effect on
    pollutant levels (if not greater) are coal and oil fired electricity
    generating plants and diesel engines.
    Tegger, Aug 28, 2008
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.
Similar Threads
There are no similar threads yet.