Integra LS - Exhaust Issues - Cat Converter ???

Hello and Thank You All for any advice anyone may have to offer. I've
owned a 1998 Acura Integra LS w/ an automatic transmission. The car
Acura Certified Pre-Owned when I purchased it from the dealer. The car
is COMPLETELY STOCK with no modifications. The car has about 75K miles
on it now and I've had the timing belt and water pump replaced (this
week), the oil changes done on time, all new tires, and had a major
tune up (w/a tranny flush) and all brakes replaced when I had my
alignment done within the last year. My Integra has been very good to
me so far and I'd like to keep it that way.

Lately, I have been hearing and feelings things on my integra that
have me a little concerned. I'll do my best to describe the list of
things my Integra has been doing : I hear a rattling underneath the
car when it's 1st started and when driving between 2500RPM - 4000RPM
on the tach till the speed is over 30mph, when I turn the steering
makes a groaning sound, and finally my Integra has been getting some
of the worst mileage I have ever experienced since owning my car. I
took my car to get the coolant flushed and oil changed to my local
mechanic, and had him take a look at it. He said the catalytic
converter was damaged ( the honeycomb inside had broken down and was
rattling inside is what he said). Now this seems unusual to me with a
car with 75K on it. The car's performance and idling has seemed lagged
over the last 2 months and I had a slight hesistation while
accelerating. I think it is important to point out that the exhaust
tip has stained black on the bottom portion of the tip, like blackened
soot. The mechanic says that the Oxygen sensor is probably still good
since the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT isn't on and just needs a new catalytic
converter replaced. Funny thing is after the mechanic looked at it the
rattling and shaking stopped.

I would greatly appreciate any assistant or experience may have with
what I've described above. A catalytic converter on a 1998 is
extremely expensive and my exhuast is still under warranty so I'd like
to not pay over $700 for something that is still covered. My dealer
said if the cat is truly broken it will be replaced FREE OF CHARGE,
but if that is not I'll have to pay $92 PER HOUR for them just to look
at it ! How can I tell it's definitely the catalytic converter that is
broken and not something else . Thank you very much for all your help
with this issue and saving me from a $92 p/hour labor charge from the
dealer...

 

The rattling is most likely just the heat shield on the catalytic converter
or the pipe behind it... known as the B-pipe. When the mechanic poked
around there he probably moved it slightly which stopped the rattle...
probably just temporarily. If your catalytic converter was bad you would
get a bona fide check engine light. At 75K it could also be the muffler
and/or B-pipe which is coming up for replacement.

The slight groaning in the steering is normal at low Winter temperatures
till it's warmed up.

The low fuel mileage might be normal in Winter. If you live where it gets
below freezing regularly, you can expect to lose up to 10% fuel mileage in
Winter vs. Summer depending on your driving profile, e.g. short trips vs.
long trips. Blackened exhaust tips is nothing unusual either for a modern
car.

For the hesitation and performance, is the engine getting up to normal
temperature and the heater working OK? Try a bottle of fuel injection
cleaner, like Chevron Techron Concentrate, in the gas tank just before your
next fill-up. If that doesn't help you might want to have the valve
clearances and timing checked... but find a mechanic who knows what he is
doing and is honest.

Let us know whether you live in the frost belt.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

The rattling is most likely just the heat shield on the catalytic converter
or the pipe behind it... known as the B-pipe. When the mechanic poked
around there he probably moved it slightly which stopped the rattle...
probably just temporarily. If your catalytic converter was bad you would
get a bona fide check engine light. At 75K it could also be the muffler
and/or B-pipe which is coming up for replacement.

The slight groaning in the steering is normal at low Winter temperatures
till it's warmed up.

The low fuel mileage might be normal in Winter. If you live where it gets
below freezing regularly, you can expect to lose up to 10% fuel mileage in
Winter vs. Summer depending on your driving profile, e.g. short trips vs.
long trips. Blackened exhaust tips is nothing unusual either for a modern
car.

For the hesitation and performance, is the engine getting up to normal
temperature and the heater working OK? Try a bottle of fuel injection
cleaner, like Chevron Techron Concentrate, in the gas tank just before your
next fill-up. If that doesn't help you might want to have the valve
clearances and timing checked... but find a mechanic who knows what he is
doing and is honest.

Let us know whether you live in the frost belt.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

George,
Thanks for the reply ! I appreciate your experience with this. I do
live in Maryland, where it's been getting extremely cold lately (under
20 degrees F). I took my car in for emissions testing today and passed
with no problems. So I am agreeing with you that it is not the cat but
that ever persisent heat shield rattle. How could one see if it was
indeed a broken catalytic converter without cracking it open. A
mechanic banging the cat and hearing something shake didn't exactly
boost my confidence in his diagnostic of it LOL. Does anyone think
this mechanic is yanking my chain ? I'd like to avoid paying the
dealer $92 p/hour just to tell me he was wrong.

As for the heater - the car warms up fine and the heater works great
(aside from the squeaking when the fan is on - any idea what that
maybe ?). I'll try the fuel concentrate you suggested. George, what is
it they do to have the valves clearances checked and costs associated
with it and timing checked (I replaced the timing belt last week if
that makes a difference to whether it's needed or not). Thanks again
for all your help !

 

George,
Thanks for the reply ! I appreciate your experience with this. I do
live in Maryland, where it's been getting extremely cold lately (under
20 degrees F). I took my car in for emissions testing today and passed
with no problems. So I am agreeing with you that it is not the cat but
that ever persisent heat shield rattle. How could one see if it was
indeed a broken catalytic converter without cracking it open. A
mechanic banging the cat and hearing something shake didn't exactly
boost my confidence in his diagnostic of it LOL. Does anyone think
this mechanic is yanking my chain ? I'd like to avoid paying the
dealer $92 p/hour just to tell me he was wrong.

As for the heater - the car warms up fine and the heater works great
(aside from the squeaking when the fan is on - any idea what that
maybe ?). I'll try the fuel concentrate you suggested. George, what is
it they do to have the valves clearances checked and costs associated
with it and timing checked (I replaced the timing belt last week if
that makes a difference to whether it's needed or not). Thanks again
for all your help !

 

just so you know, the easiest way to avoid paying the dealer $92 dollars an
hour is to NOT GO TO THE DEALERSHIP FOR WORK THAT ISN'T UNDER WARRANTY. The
techs there are no more qualified than your local mechanic. Acura does not
have a tech training program so all the dealerships just use ASE certified
technicians (whoa, that's just the same as that mechanic down the street!).

So lets do the math:
$100/hr @ the dealership +crappy workmanship so you come back sooner = BIG
RIP OFF
$60/hr @ a local shop + competitive workmanship so you don't go somewhere
else = SMART CAR OWNER

So there we have it kids. Dealers, great for buying cars (HAH) shitty for
getting a car worked on. Class dismissed.

[/QUOTE]
me??

 

just so you know, the easiest way to avoid paying the dealer $92 dollars an
hour is to NOT GO TO THE DEALERSHIP FOR WORK THAT ISN'T UNDER WARRANTY. The
techs there are no more qualified than your local mechanic. Acura does not
have a tech training program so all the dealerships just use ASE certified
technicians (whoa, that's just the same as that mechanic down the street!).

So lets do the math:
$100/hr @ the dealership +crappy workmanship so you come back sooner = BIG
RIP OFF
$60/hr @ a local shop + competitive workmanship so you don't go somewhere
else = SMART CAR OWNER

So there we have it kids. Dealers, great for buying cars (HAH) shitty for
getting a car worked on. Class dismissed.

[/QUOTE]
me??

 

Did the bad gas mileage and sluggishness start right after the timing belt
job?

The rattle is most likely some part of the heat shield on the B-pipe,
probably right by the cat. I wouldn't count on that auditory diagnosis of
your cat. My friend had the heat shield on the B-pipe rust around the bolts
that hold it on by the cat. It was rusted through but still touching so it
wasn't obvious that it was actually rusted through but it mad for plenty of
noise since the pieces were close enough to rub or tap together with any
vibration. Knocking on the cat made a rattling noise. Driving the car the
right way would make it sound like a dirt bike. lol. He could also get it
to buzz around 2500 or 3000 RPM so I would bet this is one of your problems.
Now, since your car has a warrantee that you said covers exhaust, they
should be able to fix that without charge. Perhaps having one issued
covered by the warrantee to bring the car in for is enough to get your
sluggishness inspected at the same time for free? If not, what are the
chances the problem isn't covered? Are a lot of engine-related things not
covered? ...$92/hr... ....THAT is painful!

Your bag gas mileage may be just from letting the car warm up a long time
since it's been cold out, if you do. The sluggishness could be a perception
from the noisiness of the exhaust too. My friends car sounded completely
different once the heat shield was fixed. It is amazing how much noise a
floppy piece can add yet still blend in somehow. Of course problems with
running and idling as well as gas mileage can be from a poorly done timing
belt job too.

Aron

 

Did the bad gas mileage and sluggishness start right after the timing belt
job?

The rattle is most likely some part of the heat shield on the B-pipe,
probably right by the cat. I wouldn't count on that auditory diagnosis of
your cat. My friend had the heat shield on the B-pipe rust around the bolts
that hold it on by the cat. It was rusted through but still touching so it
wasn't obvious that it was actually rusted through but it mad for plenty of
noise since the pieces were close enough to rub or tap together with any
vibration. Knocking on the cat made a rattling noise. Driving the car the
right way would make it sound like a dirt bike. lol. He could also get it
to buzz around 2500 or 3000 RPM so I would bet this is one of your problems.
Now, since your car has a warrantee that you said covers exhaust, they
should be able to fix that without charge. Perhaps having one issued
covered by the warrantee to bring the car in for is enough to get your
sluggishness inspected at the same time for free? If not, what are the
chances the problem isn't covered? Are a lot of engine-related things not
covered? ...$92/hr... ....THAT is painful!

Your bag gas mileage may be just from letting the car warm up a long time
since it's been cold out, if you do. The sluggishness could be a perception
from the noisiness of the exhaust too. My friends car sounded completely
different once the heat shield was fixed. It is amazing how much noise a
floppy piece can add yet still blend in somehow. Of course problems with
running and idling as well as gas mileage can be from a poorly done timing
belt job too.

Aron

 

Remember dealers have something to lose if they screw up too, assuming
they aren't competing with other local dealers and pricey garages. They
have to answer to a corporate standard. They are usually rated and may
jeopardize their certification from the manufacturer if they do poor work.
There is no total guarantee either way but there are plenty of local shops
that I have witnessed using the "crappy workmanship so you come back sooner"
theory in practice. The mechanic that is trustworthy, knowledgeable with
respect to your car, and appreciates the fact that he is repairing someone's
car (rather than looking at it as dollars that come in the door just because
the car is there) is the one to go with weather he charges $32 more or $32
less. It is worth getting the job done well because a job done shoddily is
a nightmare that may never end.

Aron

 

Remember dealers have something to lose if they screw up too, assuming
they aren't competing with other local dealers and pricey garages. They
have to answer to a corporate standard. They are usually rated and may
jeopardize their certification from the manufacturer if they do poor work.
There is no total guarantee either way but there are plenty of local shops
that I have witnessed using the "crappy workmanship so you come back sooner"
theory in practice. The mechanic that is trustworthy, knowledgeable with
respect to your car, and appreciates the fact that he is repairing someone's
car (rather than looking at it as dollars that come in the door just because
the car is there) is the one to go with weather he charges $32 more or $32
less. It is worth getting the job done well because a job done shoddily is
a nightmare that may never end.

Aron

 

The squeaking heater is probably leaf or other plant debris - try turning
the fan to max and switching the air routing controls between several
settings - might flush it out or you may just have to wait for it to
disintegrate over time. I wish Honda would fit a screen to the air
intakes, like Toyota does, but instead they offer advice in the owner
manual to keep the bottom of the windshield area clear of debris. Oh if
the fan sounds unbalanced on max setting the squeaking could also be a
mouse nest - I hope not but it has happened to me.

Valve clearance is ~1hr job - take off valve box cover and check/adjust
lash on all the 16 valves. At the same time you might ask them to check
the pulley alignment to make sure the new timing belt was properly
installed - should be no additional cost. If you want to avoid dealer
costs you might look around for an independent shop which specializes in
imports or Hondas specifically.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

The squeaking heater is probably leaf or other plant debris - try turning
the fan to max and switching the air routing controls between several
settings - might flush it out or you may just have to wait for it to
disintegrate over time. I wish Honda would fit a screen to the air
intakes, like Toyota does, but instead they offer advice in the owner
manual to keep the bottom of the windshield area clear of debris. Oh if
the fan sounds unbalanced on max setting the squeaking could also be a
mouse nest - I hope not but it has happened to me.

Valve clearance is ~1hr job - take off valve box cover and check/adjust
lash on all the 16 valves. At the same time you might ask them to check
the pulley alignment to make sure the new timing belt was properly
installed - should be no additional cost. If you want to avoid dealer
costs you might look around for an independent shop which specializes in
imports or Hondas specifically.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

I read some of the other posts related to this subject and it's obvious
that you have received some excellent advice. I will add my two cents--you
wanted to know if you need to have your catalytic converter replaced. The
answer is NO. You mentioned in one of your last posts that your vehicle
just passed a pollution test. If your catalytic converter was not working
correctly--your vehicle would NOT have passed the pollution test. In
addition, if your engine light would come on if yur catalytic converter
was not working. The other posters told you the source of the problem and
I agree with them. If you can't fix the problem, take it to a local
mechanic that you trust and have him fix the problem. It's difficult to
work on items under the car unless you have a lift which is why I depend
on a local mechanic whenever I need work done under the car.

 

I read some of the other posts related to this subject and it's obvious
that you have received some excellent advice. I will add my two cents--you
wanted to know if you need to have your catalytic converter replaced. The
answer is NO. You mentioned in one of your last posts that your vehicle
just passed a pollution test. If your catalytic converter was not working
correctly--your vehicle would NOT have passed the pollution test. In
addition, if your engine light would come on if yur catalytic converter
was not working. The other posters told you the source of the problem and
I agree with them. If you can't fix the problem, take it to a local
mechanic that you trust and have him fix the problem. It's difficult to
work on items under the car unless you have a lift which is why I depend
on a local mechanic whenever I need work done under the car.

 

I would suggest that you have someone check on top of the heat shield
for pebbles or debris - this will make a **rattle** on start up, etc.
I would also suggest that unless you regularly park in tall fields or
piles of leaves... you remove the shield entirely. Every car I have
owned will have a problem with this damn shield at some point and it
usually only gets better when it's removed.

You asked about how you can tell if a cat is bad?? You should have
your 'check engine' light come on among other things but if not...
stand behind the car facing the wind and smell for a horrendous rotten
egg smell. Unless it's warranty work, I would avoid the gouge of the
dealer unless it's for something very specialized that you can't get a
local mechanic to handle.

It's advisable to deal with a mechanic that knows Hondas very well
though... There are a few aspects of the the design that beg specific
attention (i.e. OEM power steering fluid, no slick 50, tbelt changes
regularly....).

There is likely nothing wrong with your Integra but it wouldn't hurt to
check to see if the ECU is throwing any codes just to be safe...

Andrew.

 

I would suggest that you have someone check on top of the heat shield
for pebbles or debris - this will make a **rattle** on start up, etc.
I would also suggest that unless you regularly park in tall fields or
piles of leaves... you remove the shield entirely. Every car I have
owned will have a problem with this damn shield at some point and it
usually only gets better when it's removed.

You asked about how you can tell if a cat is bad?? You should have
your 'check engine' light come on among other things but if not...
stand behind the car facing the wind and smell for a horrendous rotten
egg smell. Unless it's warranty work, I would avoid the gouge of the
dealer unless it's for something very specialized that you can't get a
local mechanic to handle.

It's advisable to deal with a mechanic that knows Hondas very well
though... There are a few aspects of the the design that beg specific
attention (i.e. OEM power steering fluid, no slick 50, tbelt changes
regularly....).

There is likely nothing wrong with your Integra but it wouldn't hurt to
check to see if the ECU is throwing any codes just to be safe...

Andrew.

 

Thanks Bohemiam and everyone else that's helped so far. I think you're
right it's not the catalytic converter. The car in my opinion, seems
to be letting out a lot of exhaust vapors that I can see which I
thought I shouldn't be seeing when the car warms up. Any thoughts on
it? I maybe looking in the wrong direction on this one.

Any ideas on what would cause a my steering wheel to vibrate when the
Integra is not in motion ? I thought maybe the exhaust had something
to do with it but it looks like from what we've seen it doesn't seem
to be the case. I'm not sure if I am not sure if this is an issue all
4 cylinder cars have or if I am just being paranoid. I just want my
car to last as long as possible. Thanks again all for all the help
you're providing

 

Thanks Bohemiam and everyone else that's helped so far. I think you're
right it's not the catalytic converter. The car in my opinion, seems
to be letting out a lot of exhaust vapors that I can see which I
thought I shouldn't be seeing when the car warms up. Any thoughts on
it? I maybe looking in the wrong direction on this one.

Any ideas on what would cause a my steering wheel to vibrate when the
Integra is not in motion ? I thought maybe the exhaust had something
to do with it but it looks like from what we've seen it doesn't seem
to be the case. I'm not sure if I am not sure if this is an issue all
4 cylinder cars have or if I am just being paranoid. I just want my
car to last as long as possible. Thanks again all for all the help
you're providing

 

(Integra LS) spake unto the masses in

There is always a little bit in a FWD car. If it's excessive, it's usually
due to low idle or worn engine mounts.

Investigate cause of low idle before turning the idle speed screw.