How to convert your car to run on water

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by David, Jun 15, 2008.

  1. David

    David Guest

    Hey guys

    I'm just letting you know about a new product I ordered yesterday, and
    thought I'd let you know about it.

    Run Your Car With Water Today - Double your gas mileage by running
    your vehicle on a combination of water and gas. http://www.runyourcarwithwatertoday.com

    It costs $49 to buy the document/plans, but hopefully I'll recover
    that cost quickly with the gas saving. I haven't set it all up yet,
    and I don't think it will save me 50% in gas, but I've read
    independent sources and believe it's feasible to save around 10-20%.

    I think the fact it's helping the environment by reducing emmissions,
    spurred me into buying the product too.

    Anyway, like I said, I thought I'd let you know, because I know a lot
    of people are doing it tough with the increasing gas prices.

    Have a good day,

    Dave Tayler
     
    David, Jun 15, 2008
    #1
  2. David

    rick++ Guest

    Trade for some land in Florida!
     
    rick++, Jun 16, 2008
    #2
  3. David

    Jim Guest

    Exactly. If that was real ( which it is not } how long do you figure
    it would take for the gas companies to buy the patent.
     
    Jim, Jun 16, 2008
    #3
  4. David

    Steven L. Guest

    I checked the poster's website.

    Evidently they're offering a kit that enables you to split water into
    hydrogen and oxygen gases by electrolysis, using your car's battery for
    the electricity. And then to partially power your car with those gases.

    But they forgot the Law of Conservation of Energy: Your car's battery
    is kept charged by running the (gasoline-powered) engine. And that's the
    energy that will be used to do the electrolysis.
     
    Steven L., Jun 17, 2008
    #4
  5. David

    ChrisB Guest


    I call bullshit on this device until I see an independent third party
    lab validate these results. The first person to say that big oil
    companies are preventing independent labs from performing these tests
    can stick it where the sun does not shine!

    As taken from the discovery forum
    (http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9551919888/m/2321969559):

    Water-for-gas? Let's have a look, shall we?

    The standard reaction for the electrolysis of water is:
    2H2O → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
    For this process, 4 moles of electrons take place, therefore the
    standard free energy change is:
    ΔG = -nFε
    ΔG = -4*96487*1.229
    ΔG = -474330 J

    We can expect to extract -474 kJ from the products of the electrolysis
    and use it to do work.

    This is also borne out by looking at the approximate bond energies. 4
    H-O bonds must be broken, at ≈460 kJ each, but energy is released when
    the new bonds form. The O=O bond yields ≈498 kJ and the H-H bonds yield
    ≈433 kJ each. Our net free energy is:
    -4(460000) + 2(433000) + 498000 = -476000 J

    So we have to put ≈ 475 kJ into the system to separate the water, and we
    can get ≈ 475kJ back out in utilizing the free energy.

    According to the "Oxyhydrogen" people (more on this later), burning the
    resulting gases gives off 576 kJ. If the TOTAL energy that can possibly
    be released to do work is 475 kJ, how are they magically getting 576 kJ?
    They're generally not.

    Now, on to the electrolysis itself. The efficiencies for electrolysis of
    water are reported as anywhere from 50% to 94%. So, in the best case, we
    have to put 505 kJ in to be able to get 475 kJ out, and in the worst
    case we need an input of 950 kJ to be able to get 475 kJ out. Even
    before factoring in the other losses, we can see from the 50-94%
    efficiencies, that we will have a net loss of 6-50% of the energy used
    for electrolysis.

    There are thermal losses from heat engines. From Carnot, the MAXIMUM
    possible efficiency from our engine is 70-75%. The real value is about
    25% due to friction and the fact that the combustion is not
    spontaneously reversible.

    So, with the maximum possible theoretical efficiency (which can NOT be
    obtained in practice) we are now needing anywhere from 675 kJ to 1357
    kJ. Even if we allow for the inflated output numbers, and ignore the
    actual losses we'd encounter, you can NOT produce 576 kJ and use it to
    keep a process needing 675 kJ to 1357 kJ on-going. And this is before we
    try to extract any OTHER work from our engine -- we are solely using the
    output power to try and drive the input power.

    In reality, what you end up with is needing to output around 3150 kJ to
    keep the cycle going, but you are only producing 475 kJ. This is why
    water-4-gas did not work when Adam and Jamie tried it. The losses
    completely overwhelm any energies "created". Water is not a fuel -- it
    is the ashes of hydrogen that has been burned once before.


    Now, I know the "newest" schemes do not try to run the car solely off
    the hydrogen, but call for using it in a "hydro-assist" manner. The
    claim is that the hydrogen makes the gasoline burn better.

    The first thing to note is the losses from above. If we need 3150 kJ to
    produce two moles of hydrogen gas, and can only get 475 kJ back from the
    system, then we need to burn an ADDITIONAL 2675 kJ worth of gasoline
    just to break even!! This isn't looking promising.

    But, but, but... the claims are that the hydrogen is a "catalyst" and
    makes the gasoline burn more efficiently.

    So? That claim is just wrong. We know we can't affect the thermal
    efficiency of the Carnot cycle by very much, so 75% is still going to be
    "wasted". Even if the hydrogen did act as a "catalyst", there is no more
    energy to be released -- 99% of the gasoline does undergo combustion. A
    300% gain in efficiency would imply that we are now getting 399% of the
    theoretically-retrievable energy that the gasoline contains (well,
    actually more than 399% because we also need to cover the losses from
    the electrolysis). This is just asinine and Carnot says otherwise.
    Energy can not be created from nothing -- the gasoline can NOT give more
    than 100% of what it has.

    But, but, but... "it's not H2 gas that is produced, it's monatomic
    hydrogen!"

    Ok, let's look at that. The ½H2(g) → H(g) reaction is NOT exothermic
    until you reach a temperature of about 4000K. At our temperatures you
    need to INPUT another 800 kJ (4*200 kJ) to get the 2H2(g) into 4H(g).
    Without even considering the thermal losses from the combustion cycle,
    we now need an input of about 1600 kJ to our electrolysis system in
    order to get the claimed 576 kJ of "oxyhydrogen" back out (and that
    calculation was made in the 19th century and is taken from a 1911
    encyclopaedic entry -- wonder why they don't use more modern sources and
    numbers?). I'm still seeing a major net loss, aren't you?

    But, but, but... "the hydrogen DOES improve the efficiency!"

    Yes, it is reported that hydrogen can increase the lean limit from 1.7
    to 1.85, and it is also reported that hydrogen can reduce the no-load
    idle consumption of gasoline by up to 50% in small engines.

    Let's look at these. First off, these are for volumes of hydrogen that
    can't possibly be produced by these simple cells. And, the reported
    lamdas of 1.7 and 1.85 are for natural gas combustion, not gasoline. The
    lean limit for gasoline is a lamda of about 1.2. Until you get to the
    lean misfire conditions, leaning your gasoline down WILL reduce
    consumption. But you also get rough idle and loss of power. Except when
    idling, you car isn't fully leaned (and even then it's not maxed out) --
    in fact, the more demand you're putting on the engine, the richer the
    computer (or even the carb in non-EFI engines) makes the mixture. By
    overriding the computer and approaching the lean limit, you can reduce
    consumption at idle even without hydrogen. But as you place demands on
    the engine, it can NOT be run this lean. The faster you go, the more
    engine power must be used to overcome drag, so at highway speeds, even
    if you are not accelerating, you are not running a lean mixture. The
    manufacturers do NOT lean the idle down as far as possible, because
    excessive leaning can burn the spark plugs and pistons and lead to
    detonation and preignition. Even if it was possible to reduce idle usage
    of gasoline by up to 50%, the long-term engine damage and the percentage
    of the time the engine is NOT idling dramatically reduce this savings.
    Plus, you STILL need extra gasoline to produce the hydrogen in the first
    place from all the above-mentioned losses.


    "Ok, ok... so I can't get such phenomenal gains in mileage from
    'hydro-assist.' But what about this PICC stuff?"

    Ah, yes... The "pre-ignition catalytic converter". Let's take a look.

    The claim is that the PICC will break the isooctane molecule of gasoline
    down into smaller molecules that will "burn better." Oh, really? When we
    looked at the energies involved in electrolysis, we noticed that
    breaking bonds takes energy and forming bonds releases energy. It
    doesn't matter what happens in-between. If our net result is 2C8H18 +
    25O2 → 16CO2 + 18H2O, then we are breaking 37 C-H bonds, 14 C-C bonds
    and 25 O=O bonds, but re-forming 32 C-O bonds and 36 H-O bonds. Any
    bonds that form and break in-between are immaterial; we are left with a
    net change in bonds of about 37800 kJ. But, and this is important, it
    TAKES energy to make any smaller molecules. We have to put energy in, in
    order to have the higher bond energies of any smaller molecules. The net
    change from beginning to end, remains the same: whether you extract 37.8
    MJ from the gasoline, or extract 57.8 MJ after putting 20 MJ into the
    bonds of smaller molecules, is immaterial -- the net change is still
    37.8 MJ.

    And besides, the PICC sites claim they're making a "plasma". Plasmas do
    not undergo normal chemical reactions. You won't get combustion in a
    plasma, nevermind factoring in the large energies necessary to create
    plasmas in the first place.



    Every step of all these schemes consumes far more energy than it could
    possibly release. There is no magic way to get such phenomenal gains in
    fuel efficiency out of your existing car.
     
    ChrisB, Jun 17, 2008
    #5
  6. David

    Enrico Fermi Guest

    (snip)

    You pointy-headed scientists obviously hate America! I took my Lincoln
    Navigator, packed it full of lead bricks for added road-hugging weight, let
    most of the air out of the Firestone tires, added two extra gas tanks,
    supercharged it, turbocharged it and put the hydrogen doo-dad on it. Time
    for a road trip! This is a smooth ride that respects the sensibilities of
    real men. Real men like the executives at Exxon-Mobil. Have a nice day :)
     
    Enrico Fermi, Jun 18, 2008
    #6
  7. David

    road apple Guest

    Nice explanation but I doubt the average reader can handle the physical
    chemistry. An easier way is to jack up the back of the car will be
    running down hill all the time. I also have a bridge to sell if anyone
    is interested.
     
    road apple, Jun 18, 2008
    #7
Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.