Ethanol in gas?

[Kevin McMurtrie]

[snip]

back when i was an undergrad, one of the hot ticket research areas was high temperature materials for combustion technology. basic thermodynamics show that the higher the combustion temperature achieved, the better the efficiency. but then, BOOM, suddenly, we have NOx emissions to worry about and the dream of high thermodynamic efficiency and significantly lower fuel consumption is forever dead. it's strange how things always seem to work out for the oil industry like this, isn't it?

Engines run with some extra air around the edges of the combustion to take care carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and soot. That extra air is what produces NOx. The solution to that is to cool the combustion by diluting the air/fuel mixture with exhaust. There goes the efficiency.

Unfortunately, there's no more efficient solution at this time. The additional CO2 from reduced efficiency is somewhat less toxic than the hydrocarbons or NOx from an efficient engine.

We're still lacking two critical technologies - cheap fuel cells and cheap hydrogen storage. Some scientists claim that near-future nanotechnologies can make cheap fuel cell catalysts and trap hydrogen in a safe form. I hope so. My Honda Accord Hybrid sure is a failure.

 

[ThomasE]

Regarding the more tangible ideas presented I suggest that we all run an experiment with our cars comparing Ethanol Gas with Non Ethanol Gas. As I have indicated in my Apr 24, 2006 at 02:48 PM post under the title “MPG difference with different gas?“ I, personally, have seen strong indication of large fluctuations in gas mileage between two different brands/gas stations that I have been monitoring lately here in Milpitas, CA. The difference is not small. So far I have filled up a total of 6 tanks of gas (3 from each station) using my 3 different cars and noticed a 15-17%!! difference in the ethanol gas compared to the non-ethanol gas. The magnitude of the difference surprised me.

I engaged in this experiment because I had been routinely fueling up at my local 76 gas station for the past year or so, checking gas mileage once in a while out of curiosity and as an indication of general engine health. Then, in the last few months, I noticed that gas mileage on my ’98 Nissan Frontier had dropped significantly and I started wondering if my engine was getting out of tune. So I tried filling up at another gas station, my local Shell station and voila! The MPG went back up to the 24.5MPG that I remember when the truck was new. I repeated the experiment with my other two cars, an ’88 Nissan 323 and a ’89 Honda CRX and I also noticed similar MPG differences (15-17%).

I cannot claim to know at this point whether this is due to the ethanol or other additives. I do know that the caloric content of ethanol is much lower than gas so some decrease in gas mileage should be expected. Also I do not know whether the caloric content of ethanol is converted to mechanical energy with the same efficiency. And sure, other factors could be at play such as driving conditions, ambient temperature, accuracy of pump measurement etc. So I would like to encourage you to run similar experiments as I continue my experiment so that we can collect a large statistical sample and remove the random errors.

I also suggest that somebody posts some ideas on how to remove other variables from this experiment so that MPG differences can be attributed to gasoline only. E.g. Do not compare city driving with Highway driving, short driving with long driving etc. In my case, with my truck, I do mostly highway driving and I noticed that the MPG using gas from any one particular gas station is surprisingly consistent (no more than 2-3% variation). I cannot explain the 15-17% difference that I have recently observed between these the two gas stations I mentioned above.

When it comes to the less tangible ideas presented, I have to confess, that I live in the US but I am originally from Europe and still spend a lot of time in Europe. In Europe where there is a lot more regulation by our “benevolent” governments we pay around $6 per gallon in most European states. The true cost of gas in Europe is more or less the same as for every other country, that is, somewhere between $2.00 and $2.50 per gallon which covers paying for the international price of crude, refinement costs and various transportation costs. The rest of the price up to the $6 level is, you guessed it, taxes that our benevolent European governments levy on us using the power that we relinquished to them a long time ago. My general advice to you Americans is, whatever you do, do not follow Europe’s example. If you do, you will also deprive us Europeans of the still rather individualistic America you have now which is the only remaining reminder to us and the rest of the world of what our countries could have been had we not relinquished our power as individuals to the collectivism of the state. As to how America got to be this fortunate, it’s another story but, from what I see, America’s individualistic fortitude will be temporary and short lived if you do not safeguard it. After all, wouldn’t you agree that it would be difficult for America to avoid the fate of almost every other country in the world? So be very weary of relinquishing power to the collective thinking of the state, it is a one way path, a trap that almost every other country in the world has fallen into and cannot get out of. It happens gradually as it happened for us Europeans. For many of us Europeans America is left as the only reminder of what our countries could have been.

 

[SoCalMike]

Not quite. It's being added because the deep-green freaks have managed beyond all logic to convince legislators that ethanol is somehow "environmentally friendly".

its easy to blame the greenies for everything. wrong!

if the oil companies werent making more money for selling less gas, and the ethanol suppliers/farmers werent making money, it wouldnt have happened. at all. ever.

same with smog checks- theyre a scam too. attrition would get rid of the truly gross polluters.

 

[SoCalMike]

To a point I suppose. But...

It didn't work out for them when they were told to find an alternative to TEL. It didn't work out for them when they were prevented by the greenies and the NIMBYs from building new refineries.

excuses, excuses. excuses to charge more for gas. "its the greenies"! its "nimby", etc. royal dutch shell closed a perfectly good refinery in bakersfield california for no reason other than to tighten supply.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aqCQOg0SrBF8&refer=us

It didn't work out for them when they were told to produce "boutique" fuels for tiny markets. It didn't work out for them when they were told to reduce sulfur content.

it always works out for them. always.

 

[SoCalMike]

Meanwhile, Cuba is making plans to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, but Congress won't let our producers do it, being fearful of the Greenies.

coff (bullshit) coff...

why would they WANT to increase supply when theyre getting whatever they feel like charging now?

if you sold widgets on ebay for whatever you felt like charging, and were not having supply problems, why would you want to spend the millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd be forced to lower prices.

 

[jmattis]

Perhaps you would like to give the your source for your statements that ethanol causes a 6% mileage decrease(= 1.5 gal ethanol approximates 1 gal gas).

You could Google it, you know. The first thing that shows up is:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm

which is actually a pretty reasonable analysis.

Regarding the water use, no it doesn't disappear, but you're taking water that could be drunk, used to grow food, wash your car, take a bath, etc., and are turning it into water vapor. Sure it'll rain somewhere. Don't you know how much water California is already "stealing" from Utah, they're really pissed about the current allocation. Potable water is a valuable resource and you'll understand that when the supply of that tightens up too.

Meanwhile, let's all have more kids and encourage more immigration, legal or otherwise.

 

[Robert Mozeleski]

This link will let you see what mileage others are getting in real life. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList I have been updating mine almost every time i fill up. 09/30/2005 266.40 8.009 33.3 10/07/2005 230.00 8.122 28.3 10/17/2005 225.80 7.769 29.1 10/24/2005 222.40 7.674 29.0 11/08/2005 221.90 7.658 29.0 12/14/2005 186.50 7.247 25.7 03/27/2006 236.30 8.681 27.2 04/05/2006 255.30 8.704 29.3 04/12/2006 224.40 7.521 29.8 04/25/2006 244.40 8.847 27.6

Go here first and create your own record https://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do it graphs it out for you also.

 

[notbob]

a vehicle as far as 1.0 gallons of gas. The earlier poster arguing against the gas mileage drop is either biased or truly ignorant.

Much would depend on the car. In my case, the Dodge van of which I spoke was susceptible to pre-detonation (knock or pinging). This severely reduces the efficiency of the engine. Loss of efficieny equals lower milage. Using E90 gasoline greatly reduced pinging under load on hot days. So, reduced pinging equals increase efficiency. A net gain or loss in mileage? Who knows. All I know is my truck ran better and I didn't "notice" a loss in mileage.

How timely is this? Popular Mechanics crunches the numbers:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y

nb

 

[Gordon McGrew]

The Agri Business Lobby is the biggest booster of ethanol. It can harm certain rubber gaskets and o rings in older autos - dissolves them. It delivers less energy than straight gas. Ethanol gets an $18 per gallon subsidy from us taxpayers and still costs $118 per barrel - really $136 with the subsidy included.

Cornell University did a study of the efficiency of producing ethanol - they determined it took 129 BRU's of energy - inputs ranging from diesel fuel to till, harvest, transport and produce the stuff while only delivering 100 BTU's.

Yes the US of A produces a whole lot of corn simply because the stuff is so subsidized - cash price is now around $2.35 per bushel - not much change from 40 years ago. When Mexico opened their borders to US corn, their local corn producers could not compete - nobody in the world can with that price - cotton is even worse. We have a fantastic amount of "carry over" corn from last year still in silos around the country. The Agri Business Lobby got the gasoline clean air bill passed last year that would require all gasoline in the US to be adultrated with ethanol and increase to 20% of the total blend over the next 10 years. I suspect ethanol in gasoline causes a net degredation to our environment after the inefficiency of the stuff along with the run off from the additional acers of corn being planted is taken into account.

So IMHO all the whole ethanol thing boils down to is this - our congress - both houses cow tows to the Agri Business Lobby - pure and simple - like so many other issues - who has the money controls our federal political system. I know our system is "better" than most others - wow what a mess the rest of the world must be in for that to be true.

End of rant.

I think what you say is pretty much correct. However, it should be mentioned that the idea of ethanol fuel is not inherently bad. Brazil has a very successful program and expects to be completely independent of imported oil soon. They use sugar cane which I think is less energy intensive to grow, harvest and process. I wonder what the economics of beets would be.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

coff (bullshit) coff...

why would they WANT to increase supply when theyre getting whatever they feel like charging now?

if you sold widgets on ebay for whatever you felt like charging, and were not having supply problems, why would you want to spend the millions to build a widget factory? that would glut the market and youd be forced to lower prices.

What is blocking US drilling in the Gulf is the fact that the residents of a certain state understandably don't want drilling off their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a brother in high office.

 

[butch burton]

The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the hell out of their ethanol program. Sugar beets are grown for sugar production in this country in a few places becasue the US govt places strict quotas on sugar imports into the USA. If those import quotas were removed, there would not be the first sugar beet grown in the US nor would there be any cane sugar grown in FL - a very wealthy Cuban family owns the FL cane sugar business.

Also the whole business of corn sugar production would dry up - it is cheaper than cane sugar - which is a vastly better sugar - only because of the huge govt subsidy on corn. When you roll all the govt ag subsidies up together - you find a sticky web that controls the US Senate and to a lesser degree the house. The Senate is easier to buy. If anyone attempts to eliminate these welfare programs for the billion dollar agri business sector - it won't happen - too many wealthy people are dependent upon taxpayer handouts.

 

[SoCalMike]

What is blocking US drilling in the Gulf is the fact that the residents of a certain state understandably don't want drilling off their coast. That might not matter except that their governor has a brother in high office.

there are other states in the gulf as well- louisiana, texas, etc.

the fact of it is the oil companies are happy to bring the oil over from the middle east, refine it, then charge what they feel like. and WTF are YOU gonna do about it? nothin, thats what.

then they say "ummm... its the environmentalists!" and you, as one of the lemmings, say "uhhh... okay!"

there *is no shortage*

no "gas lines", no rationing, no closed stations. just record profits.

they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or repub) has to deal with the aftermath.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

The basic problem with ethanol is how energy inefficient it is to produce. Cornell said it takes 129 BTU's of energy to make 100 BTU's of energy from ethanol. There is a vast world surplus of sugar just now and even with that surplus I will bet Brazil is subsidizing the hell out of their ethanol program.

The problem with that theory is that subsidies don't produce energy directly. Brazilian oil imports are going down while energy use is going up. The energy has to be coming from somewhere. Throwing money at ethanol production wouldn't reduce fuel imports unless there was a net gain in BTUs.

 

[dimndsonmywndshld]

they gotta make the money while they can, because dubya and his cronies only have a few more years of looting to go! gotta make sure they can all retire VERY comfortably, while the next administration (dem or repub) has to deal with the aftermath.

Got to agree. It's all about greed.
In a related matter, guess which former employer of our Vice Pres. managed to botch the reconstruction of a major Iraqi oil pipeline? How better to raise the price of oil than by keeping supply short? And that contract was awarded sole source of course, no competition, no scrutiny. And the contract is still in place despite non-performance.

 

[jmattis]

You can hide that net gain in BTU in government budgets for a long time. Employment rises, sugar production subsidies, etc etc. The question is, are the economics right? Maybe it is in Brazil, but that doesn't mean it is right for the US.

 

[ThomasE]

That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for gas.

 

[SoCalMike]

That is why we Europeans put strict controls on our big bad oil companies and in some cases even completely nationalized our oil industries we are trying to partially undo this now). We put our national governments in control so that the oil industry serves the interest of the people rather than the interest of a few millionaires. Result: we pay $6 per gallon for gas.

sure... but what kind of income or sales taxes are there? hows unemployment? hows health care?

 

[ThomasE]

In Europe, income tax rates vary by country but generally speaking the top marginal tax rates are somewhere between 40% to 55% in most countries and these top rates kick in at moderate incomes, somewhere between $50,000-$100,000 yearly income.

Sales tax rates in Europe (called VAT=Value Added Tax) range from 15% to 20% and there are much fewer exceptions to what is not taxed compared to the typical US sales tax (eg in the US some states do not tax services).

There are also a lot of other taxes in Europe which the consumer often does not even see. Eg. Most European cars have hefty luxury taxes on automobiles that you Americans consider average (eg. a Jeep Cherokee). Most countries have steep progressive taxes on automobile engine size. There are levys on our utility bills for national TV channels that we may never watch, and so on… a lot more indirect taxation compared to the US.

The healthcare systems are more difficult to compare although I am somewhat familiar with the subject because I work in cancer research. Most European countries have nationalized health care systems. In my experience the better ones of these systems are comparable to some of the less desirable HMO’s here in America. The PPO plans that American companies typically offer are far superior to any European national healthcare system.

I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that ain’t broken. For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I work in cancer research). In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
10.7% Chevron 10.7%)
By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34% margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries evil too?

As a European I am telling you, America aint’ broken so don’t try so hard to fix it, especially if the fixing is trying to make it like Europe, a Europe which having fallen so far behind in economic development is finally grudgingly attempting some changes. But the moment America becomes more like Europe and consequently stops pulling the world economy wagon, Europe will surely and merrily go back to its old ways.

Unfortunately, no matter what I may say, you Americans will also gradually and predictably invite government intervention in more and more aspects of your life thereby falling into the same inevitable trap that every other nation in this world has fallen. As a matter of fact you never escaped that fate, you are just earlier on in this process because this is still a new country having been colonized just 3 centuries ago.

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

my local stations just started using ethanol in their pumps (happend about 2 weeks ago or so) they are all 10% ethanol. besides form what I've been reading about it getting worse gas mileage (which I find funny, because gas keeps going up steadly, and then one day I notice a 10% ethanol sticker, and gas was still higher.... seems pretty fishy to me, but what can you expect from oil companies. ) is ethanol bad for my engine (I4 2006 accord) what percentage of ethanol can it safely take? do any stations still use regular gas formulations (non ethanol)?

Find a new place to buy gas. Ethanol has a lower energy content, so unless the price is lower, you are getting less for your money.

 

[SoCalMike]

I think that you are all too eager to criticize and fix an America that ain’t broken. For example, as far as profits go, the US oil industry is not the evil that it is portrayed to be (I remind you, I have nothing to do with the

the secretary of energy said they expect rising gas prices for the next 3 years, until our esteemed leader leaves office.

has the price of gas in europe doubled over the past year? are italians now paying $10/gal?

because thats whats happened. gas was always under the $2 mark, usually around $1.50/gal. now its double that.

oil industry, I have a background in Biophysics and Computer Science and I work in cancer research). In absolute dollar terms oil industry profits may seem large but when sales volume is taken into account one finds that their profit margins are below industry average. Recent data reports an average profit margin of around 8% for the oil industry (some numbers: Shell 7.7% BP 6.8% Exxon
10.7% Chevron 10.7%)

exxon mobil just posted record net profits last quarter... higher than walmart. thats AFTER all expenses are paid.

By comparison, Yahoo operates on a 45% profit margin, Citigroup on a 34% margin and so on. Pharmaceuticals and Biotech industries as a whole have an average profit margin of 19%, Banks 18%, Food 9%. Are these industries evil too?

have they all doubled what they charge in the past year, just because they can?

pharmaceutical companies have taken a lot of flack for selling the same drugs cheaper to the rest of the world than they do to americans. which is why some americans go to canada or mexico for prescription drugs.