Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles

[dold]

I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
picture of the "Smart" vehicle?

http://www.threepointmotors.com/smart/index.asp is a Canadian Dealer.

Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
might not be saving any money in the long run.

This is the subject of "well to wheel" comparisons. How much does it help,
if any, to move the generation of the power from one place to another,
including the inefficiencies in transport.

Time of day metering might be mandatory for an Electric car owner, charging
up at night.

Solar power could be used for charging the electric vehicle, in a home
setup.

Nuclear/Geothermal/Hydro could be the source of the electricity, reducing
the need for non-renewable and foreign resources.

 

[Sparky Spartacus]

As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
coulds of dust when dry.

 

[dold]

As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
coulds of dust when dry.

Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.

 

[Steve Bigelow]

Hello,
I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
picture of the "Smart" vehicle?

Google owns you.

smart.com

 

[Dave]

Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
might not be saving any money in the long run.

Electric wins out ...

A pure electric vehicle might average 300-400 Wh/mile. Add charging
inefficiency and it'll take a bit more, but let's use 400 Wh. My
marginal electric is about $.07/kWh, so it's about $0.028/mi, or
about 36 mi/$. Compare to gasoline at about 10 mi/$ ($2.40/gal and
a 24 mpg car).

Efficiencywise, using 41% average electrical efficiency, it's about
1 kWh(original fuel)/mi compared to about 1.6 for crude oil to the
above car.

But if everyone did it, we'd have to up our electrical capacity by
quite a bit! ( I don't think just off peak charging would do it).

 

[FanJet]

That belies the "only source of energy" that you repeat frequently.
It's oil, not diesel or gasoline, for the Smart and most other cars.

I picked posted results for each because that would seem to be the
folks from the hyper-miler class, squeezing miles out of their barrel
of oil. I stayed with Canadian posts, so I could keep the Smart in
context.

There are hypermilers in the US that report 90MPG with the Insight.

The Smart is estimated at 51/61 USMPG (and 19.8 seconds 0-60).
The Insight is rated at 60/71 USMPG (and 10.6 seconds 0-60).

What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.

 

[dold]

What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.

Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the run?

Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?

Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do you
think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the Smart taking
twice as long for the run?

 

[SoCalMike]

Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.

especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
long horsedrawn carriage.

 

[FanJet]

Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the
run?

Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?

Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do
you think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the
Smart taking twice as long for the run?

Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a battery
recharge is required. Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency
drops dramatically with ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42
and plain old gasoline ICE cars don't have. This particular problem is
mitigated by warming the batteries in the same way the passenger compartment
is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can plan on hybrid ICEs running all the
time - even in city driving. Same thing happens with the batteries get too
warm except then they use A/C which, again, requires the ICE.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

http://www.threepointmotors.com/smart/index.asp is a Canadian Dealer.


This is the subject of "well to wheel" comparisons. How much does it help,
if any, to move the generation of the power from one place to another,
including the inefficiencies in transport.

Time of day metering might be mandatory for an Electric car owner, charging
up at night.

Solar power could be used for charging the electric vehicle, in a home
setup.

Nuclear/Geothermal/Hydro could be the source of the electricity, reducing
the need for non-renewable and foreign resources.

Don't forget wind.

 

[Abeness]

especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
long horsedrawn carriage.

Wouldn't be able to go 85, either. ;-))

 

[Sparky Spartacus]

Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.

You bet! Not what I was suggesting, of course. Too expensive to convert
all the gas stations to selling hay & oats, just for openers, plus
there's a severe shortage of blacksmiths to keep the horses shod.

 

[Dave]

What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.

???
This is a silly point.

 

[dold]

Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a
battery recharge is required.

Motor Trend did eight back to back runs to deplete the battery, and
then they still got a 13.1 second 0-60.

Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency drops dramatically with
ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42 and plain old gasoline
ICE cars don't have.

I don't notice a drop in 20-30 degree weather. Dramatically colder
climates might see different results. I do see a drop in MPG with the A/C
running, whether in the summer to cool the car, or the winter to defrost.

This particular problem is mitigated by warming the batteries in the same
way the passenger compartment is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can
plan on hybrid ICEs running all the time - even in city driving. Same
thing happens with the batteries get too warm except then they use A/C
which, again, requires the ICE.

The ICE does not auto-stop when it is cold. I haven't noticed that cause a
drop in the mileage. I think its contribution is small for normal driving.
It might be a plus in congested city traffic, but there I find that the
Honda runs anyway, because it has to get up to 10mph before the auto-stop
is enabled. There is no A/C for the batteries in a Honda. It gets a flow
of air from the passenger compartment, whatever temp that might be.

There is a separate cooling/heating unit in the Escape. I think it is a
separate electric-driven unit, so it doesn't require the ICE to be running.
I can hear it running after the ICE shuts off. I don't know that I would
call it A/C, since it uses coolant and not freon.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the Insight gets
73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.

Do you think the Smart gets 54 mpg irrespective of conditions?

 

[Guest]

In California u can get a Civic NGV and get an NGV home refueling
appliance installed to get a low-pressure fill from your house natural
gas line. That's good for about 100 mi -- for a complete fill-up you
have to go to NGV station. One driver/HOV lane eligible, less
pollution, more supply + tax rebate (but fuel not much less $$). But
since carpool lane might open to Hybrids it isn't very popular. Plus
there isn't much trunk space.

 

[dold]

In California u can get a Civic NGV and get an NGV home refueling
appliance installed to get a low-pressure fill from your house natural
gas line. That's good for about 100 mi -- for a complete fill-up you
have to go to NGV station. One driver/HOV lane eligible, less
pollution, more supply + tax rebate (but fuel not much less $$). But
since carpool lane might open to Hybrids it isn't very popular. Plus
there isn't much trunk space.

The home fueling option is very recent. Prior to that, I can understand
why there was very little market outside government agencies.
There is no natural gas in my area, so it isn't helpful to me.

 

[Sparky Spartacus]

Sweet Jesus,...I want this one!
http://www.motorsm.com/collection/photos/SMART_ROADSTER_SL.jpg

Looks like a Porsche 914 with a shave and a haircut.