CV joints worn out!

[TeGGeR®]

Well, I seem to have discovered the lifespan for original OEM Honda CV joints if you never let the boots split: It's about 264,000 miles.

My left outer CV joint is making a heavy click/clunk noise when accelerating in a tight right-hand turn. In addition, an inner joint is causing vibration when accelerating in a straight line. My mechanic can't tell which inner is worn yet.

Two new shafts are going in next week (about $160 Cdn each). They will be (apparently) decent-quality aftermarket, since new OEM is shockingly expensive. The new shafts will have new outer CV joints, not remanufactured used ones. The new joints are made in Germany, manufacturer as yet unknown to me.

 

[Grumpy AuContraire]

Well, I seem to have discovered the lifespan for original OEM Honda CV joints if you never let the boots split: It's about 264,000 miles.

My left outer CV joint is making a heavy click/clunk noise when accelerating in a tight right-hand turn. In addition, an inner joint is causing vibration when accelerating in a straight line. My mechanic can't tell which inner is worn yet.

Two new shafts are going in next week (about $160 Cdn each). They will be (apparently) decent-quality aftermarket, since new OEM is shockingly expensive. The new shafts will have new outer CV joints, not remanufactured used ones. The new joints are made in Germany, manufacturer as yet unknown to me.

Working on my '83 Honda FE project, I have discovered that Honda original equipment is pretty high quality. Most of the problems encountered have been the result of someone not being through in their replacement or damaged due to the car sitting for about a dozen years.

I'm still sorting out the sensors and vacuum lines and have resolved all but a few items. One that is driving me nutz is two unused leads that should go to a sensor in the head next to the thermostat housing. I suspect that it is some sort of temperature interlock but...

JT

(Not looking forward to a trip to the local Honda dealership)

 

[Frank Boettcher]

Well, I seem to have discovered the lifespan for original OEM Honda CV joints if you never let the boots split: It's about 264,000 miles.

My left outer CV joint is making a heavy click/clunk noise when accelerating in a tight right-hand turn. In addition, an inner joint is causing vibration when accelerating in a straight line. My mechanic can't tell which inner is worn yet.

Two new shafts are going in next week (about $160 Cdn each). They will be (apparently) decent-quality aftermarket, since new OEM is shockingly expensive. The new shafts will have new outer CV joints, not remanufactured used ones. The new joints are made in Germany, manufacturer as yet unknown to me.

As with the clutch, you did far better than most.

Frank

 

[Elle]

If you're doing this yourself, I for one would find
photographs and a description educational.

Otherwise, photos of new parts prior to installation and old ones afterward would be welcome.

 

[TeGGeR®]

If you're doing this yourself, I for one would find
photographs and a description educational.

I'm not. No time. It would have made a nice additon to the FAQ, that's for sure.

Otherwise, photos of new parts prior to installation and old ones afterward would be welcome.

Photos of the old parts I can do. I'll get my guy to save them for me. I'd love to see what exactly it is that's making the noise. Maybe I can make up a page like I did for the clutch disc.

My mechanic did tell me that the major problem he's found with new aftermarket CV joints isn't the joint itself, but the boots. He says their quality is extremely variable, and they may last six months or six years. Almost all of the failures he's seen are due to only two things:
1) Boot split and nobody noticed, and
2) Poorly remanufactured used joints.

He gets very few failures of new aftermarket joints where the boot didn't split first. This is the primary reason I decided to go with it. Since I change my oil every 1.5 months, I would catch boot-splitting early.

 

[TeGGeR®]

As with the clutch, you did far better than most.

And all I did was make sure the boots never split. As soon as cracking was observed, the boots were changed. That's all ANYONE needs to do who still has original outer CV joints.

My mechanic says he can't remember ever having seen a Honda OEM outer CV joint failure that wasn't preceded by a split boot. Mine is the first he's seen that's due solely to mileage.

 

[Elle]

I'm not. No time. It would have made a nice additon to the FAQ, that's for sure.

Photos of the old parts I can do. I'll get my guy to save them for me. I'd love to see what exactly it is that's making the noise.

Yes, that would be terrific. CV joints come up here a lot, as you know. And of course for selfish reasons I'm anticipating my 91 Civic's dying and wondering how much I can do on my own, for fun and so I can put the money saved towards other things.

Maybe I can make up
a page like I did for the clutch disc.

My mechanic did tell me that the major problem he's found with new aftermarket CV joints isn't the joint itself, but the boots. He says their quality is extremely variable, and they may last six months or six years. Almost all of the failures he's seen are due to only two things:
1) Boot split and nobody noticed, and
2) Poorly remanufactured used joints.

Shoot this would be a fascinating discussion if there were enough documentation.

He gets very few failures of new aftermarket joints where the boot didn't split first. This is the primary reason I decided to go with it. Since I change my oil every 1.5 months, I would catch boot-splitting early.

Doesn't your web site promote keeping the boots intact as the first line of defense to preserving joints?

If not, from memory plenty here mention this.

 

[TeGGeR®]

Doesn't your web site promote keeping the boots intact as the first line of defense to preserving joints?

Yes indeedy. That is the key. Mine are the first my mechanic has ever seen that wore out strictly from metal fatigue, and not dirt/water ingress due to split boots.

Anyway, I got pics yesterday!
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/worn_cv-joint/

What has happened here is that two of the six balls had failed from metal fatigue. These balls are about 3/4" in diameter, and carry all the load transmitted by the joints. The hardened outer layer had spalled off in pieces into the races. Those pieces had then damaged the races by being pressed into them as the joint turned and rotated. Most of the damage was done to the inner race. Only one spot was found on the outer race, that pointed out by the yellow arrow.

Now that I've had time to consider this, the noise started over a year ago, but I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from. It appeared to be random for the longest time, becoming more consistent only very recently, and becoming quite loud only in the last couple of weeks.

I would say the joint began making noise at about 240,000 miles, so I've been driving with a worn outer joint for 25,000 miles.

Ultimately, it turns out my car had three layers of problems, none of which were particularly serious in themselves, but when taken together substantially reduced driving enjoyment. When one layer was removed, it exposed the other.

1) Badly mounted tires causing vibration at speed. The poor mounting job was obvious when tires were spun by hand and observed. My guy fixed that, and that vibration was gone, but another surfaced...

2) Worn CV joints. The inners were causing a vibration on acceleration, as well as steering wheel wobble on acceleration from a standstill. The driver's side outer's balls were spalling from metal fatigue, and were clunking badly through tight right turns. Replacement of the shafts fixed that, but now a third vibration was evident, this one *much* less intense than the others...

3) Possible injector problem. My mechanic suspects that the injectors are worn to the point that they are not all metering the exact same amount of fuel with each pulse. Ordinarily, this is not noticeable, but similarly to tires or the exhaust system, a vibration manifests at a specific resonance point in the engine's operating range. That spot is around 3,500-4,000 RPM. When you lift off the pedal, the injectors shut off and the vibration goes away. When you press on the pedal again, the injectors turn on, and the vibration reappears. It's very slight, and feels more like harshness rather than a vibration.

The third item is still subject to confirmation, but the engine mounts have been ruled out, as have compression and ignition variance between combustion chambers.

That third item may also account for two other things that have recently arisen:
1) A slightly elevated CO reading at the last emissions test, indicating excess mixture richness.
2) Fuel dilution of the engine's oil, as found in an oil analysis I just had done. This dilution has resulted in slightly elevated piston wear.
3) Gas mileage is still around 28mpg, where it's been for years, so either this problem has been around for a long time, or it's small enough that it's not affecting mileage.

New injectors are almost $300 each, so some more research will have to be done here.

Stay tuned...

 

[jim beam]

Yes indeedy. That is the key. Mine are the first my mechanic has ever seen that wore out strictly from metal fatigue, and not dirt/water ingress due to split boots.

Anyway, I got pics yesterday!
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/worn_cv-joint/

wow, impressive! as you say, hardly any joint ever gets to this stage.

What has happened here is that two of the six balls had failed from metal fatigue. These balls are about 3/4" in diameter, and carry all the load transmitted by the joints. The hardened outer layer

it's only the cheapo carbon bearing balls that have a hardened outer layer - high quality chrome bearing balls are through hardened, as would be the case here. the chrome balls still spall, but it takes longer.

had spalled off in
pieces into the races. Those pieces had then damaged the races by being pressed into them as the joint turned and rotated. Most of the damage was done to the inner race. Only one spot was found on the outer race, that pointed out by the yellow arrow.

it's interesting that only two balls show damage. if it were pure high mileage, i would expect all be in pretty much the same condition, but since the boots have been replaced, it's likely that a small piece of grit was included one time, and the tiny surface damage it caused nucleated the surface spalling, which then of course spreads like wildfire.

Now that I've had time to consider this, the noise started over a year ago, but I couldn't pinpoint where it was coming from. It appeared to be random for the longest time, becoming more consistent only very recently, and becoming quite loud only in the last couple of weeks.

I would say the joint began making noise at about 240,000 miles, so I've been driving with a worn outer joint for 25,000 miles.

Ultimately, it turns out my car had three layers of problems, none of which were particularly serious in themselves, but when taken together substantially reduced driving enjoyment. When one layer was removed, it exposed the other.

1) Badly mounted tires causing vibration at speed. The poor mounting job was obvious when tires were spun by hand and observed. My guy fixed that, and that vibration was gone, but another surfaced...

2) Worn CV joints. The inners were causing a vibration on acceleration, as well as steering wheel wobble on acceleration from a standstill. The driver's side outer's balls were spalling from metal fatigue, and were clunking badly through tight right turns. Replacement of the shafts fixed that, but now a third vibration was evident, this one *much* less intense than the others...

3) Possible injector problem. My mechanic suspects that the injectors are worn to the point that they are not all metering the exact same amount of fuel with each pulse. Ordinarily, this is not noticeable, but similarly to tires or the exhaust system, a vibration manifests at a specific resonance point in the engine's operating range. That spot is around 3,500-4,000 RPM. When you lift off the pedal, the injectors shut off and the vibration goes away. When you press on the pedal again, the injectors turn on, and the vibration reappears. It's very slight, and feels more like harshness rather than a vibration.

The third item is still subject to confirmation, but the engine mounts have been ruled out,

have they been changed? you'd be surprised how bad mounts can actually be once you can actually see what's going on.

as have compression and ignition variance between
combustion chambers.

That third item may also account for two other things that have recently arisen:
1) A slightly elevated CO reading at the last emissions test, indicating excess mixture richness.
2) Fuel dilution of the engine's oil, as found in an oil analysis I just had done. This dilution has resulted in slightly elevated piston wear.
3) Gas mileage is still around 28mpg, where it's been for years, so either this problem has been around for a long time, or it's small enough that it's not affecting mileage.

this all ties in with the injector theory. poor spray pattern can seriously affect droplet size and therefore vaporization, mixing & combustion. the injectors honda use are usually good for pretty high mileage though. be more generous with the injector cleaner for a few tanks and see if it makes any difference. gasoline quality /sucks/ right now, and injector fouling is a /real/ issue on my dpfi civic.

New injectors are almost $300 each, so some more research will have to be done here.

check into the aftermarket stuff.
www.summitracing.com/landing/sportcompact/

 

[Elle]

Anyway, I got pics yesterday!
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/worn_cv-joint/

snip for brevity, but all commentary read.

Wonderful, dead-on perfect selection of photos. Your
description is clear and well-written.

I had to open my Chilton's manual and go to Majestic for exploded views to put all the photos completely together in my mind. Way cool (as the kids say).

Thank you sir!

 

[TeGGeR®]

snip for brevity, but all commentary read.

Wonderful, dead-on perfect selection of photos. Your
description is clear and well-written.

I had to open my Chilton's manual and go to Majestic for exploded views to put all the photos completely together in my mind. Way cool (as the kids say).

Thank you sir!

It was fun.

I'm just a bit disappointed we didn't get around to pulling the inners apart. The shafts had to go back to the suppliers to get the core charge back, so we don't have them any more.

 

[TeGGeR®]

TeGGeR® wrote:

it's interesting that only two balls show damage. if it were pure high mileage, i would expect all be in pretty much the same condition,

Well, I can think of lots of instances where one thing wears but another doesn't when both have seen the same service.

but since the boots have been replaced, it's likely that a small piece of grit was included one time, and the tiny surface damage it caused nucleated the surface spalling, which then of course spreads like wildfire.

It's possible, but again my guy insists it's metal fatigue.

have they been changed? you'd be surprised how bad mounts can actually be once you can actually see what's going on.

My guy has thirty years of day-in-day-out, 8 hours a day or more, hands-on with Japanese cars. He assures me my mounts are quite certainly tickety- boo. NO problems of any kind. In fact, he says I must be a pretty gentle driver, as thay are in exceptionally good shape for their age.

this all ties in with the injector theory. poor spray pattern can seriously affect droplet size and therefore vaporization, mixing & combustion. the injectors honda use are usually good for pretty high mileage though. be more generous with the injector cleaner for a few tanks and see if it makes any difference. gasoline quality /sucks/ right now, and injector fouling is a /real/ issue on my dpfi civic.

I'm getting a Motorvac servie tomorrow morning. It's a lot more intense and effective than running a bottle of Techron through your gas tank.

I spoke at length to my guy about the injectors, and he says OEM Honda ones rarely wear out. When they go bad, it's usually the electrical component. And when that happens, you ordinarily get other driveability problems as well. Because of this, right now he suspects they're just a little gummed up from age.

Last month, I used 76.06 gallons to travel 2,151.25 miles. That's 28.28 mpg. Pretty good for 265,000 miles. Whatever's wrong with the injectors is not very severe, just enough to cause an imbalance at the engine's resonance point.

 

[jim beam]

Well, I can think of lots of instances where one thing wears but another doesn't when both have seen the same service.

so can i, but balls in the same c.v. cage are not on that list!

It's possible, but again my guy insists it's metal fatigue.

spalling /is/ a manifestation of fatigue.

My guy has thirty years of day-in-day-out, 8 hours a day or more, hands-on with Japanese cars. He assures me my mounts are quite certainly tickety- boo. NO problems of any kind. In fact, he says I must be a pretty gentle driver, as thay are in exceptionally good shape for their age.

is this the same guy that assured you that the rear trailing arm bushings didn't matter? trust me on this one tegger, if these are the original bushings, they're shot. take the rear one out and inspect it. i /guarantee/ it's torn right through.

I'm getting a Motorvac servie tomorrow morning. It's a lot more intense and effective than running a bottle of Techron through your gas tank.

I spoke at length to my guy about the injectors, and he says OEM Honda ones rarely wear out. When they go bad, it's usually the electrical component. And when that happens, you ordinarily get other driveability problems as well. Because of this, right now he suspects they're just a little gummed up from age.

i second that.