CRV fires and Honda support response

I called Honda 800 999-1009 after reading reports of CRVs burning and
exploding; I recently purchased a 2004 model. I was told by Honda
customer service that nothing is wrong with the vehicle and no recall
is planned. The fires are due to improperly installed oil filters.
Am I wrong to think that this is not good enough?

Another post in this newsgroup states that the oil filter is closer to
the CRV's hot engine manifold than in other cars. Would not a simple
splash guard prevent oil from leaking onto hot engine parts to prevent
fires and explosions in the case of improperly installed or leaking
oil filters?

I have owned enough vehicles to realize oil may sometimes leak from a
filter during or after installation, but this leak doesn't result in
catastrophe, except in the CRV. While looking up Honda's contact
information on the Web, I saw much information touting Honda safety
records and standards and awards, yet they are completely ignoring
this problem. Since safety is a main concern in choosing a car for me
and my family, I really feel that I probably will not buy a car again
from Honda in the future. Maybe I am overreacting to this. Andre

 

Here is how I think I would feel if I owned a 2003-2004 Honda CR-V:

First, I wouldn't trust Honda Customer Service to know what they're talking
about on this point. Seems to me before any defect is fully known, Customer
Services everywhere, with any product, will deny any defects exist.

Second, the report at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov (Make: HONDA Model: CR-V
Year: 2003 NHTSA Action Number: PE04018) suggests to me that maybe more of
these particular Hondas are having oil filter leakage-onto-exhaust-and-fire
problems than the average car. Maybe not. The report doesn't give a baseline for
all cars.

Third, I do care about the baseline for all cars. My very first vehicle (a
Toyota pickup truck) had its first oil change at Sears in the early 1980s. A few
miles down the road the low oil pressure light came on. I pulled over
immediately. Looked underneath and saw oil on the ground. I walked to a payphone
and called Sears. Sears sent a tow truck and towed my car back. They find the
kid mechanic did not scrape off the old gasket. It was double-gasketed, just as
the report above identifies for a number of the cars with fires.

Fourth, so how often does such an error like Sears' *also* result in a fire? Do
Hondas have a poorer record on this count? One can only guess, no thanks to the
government report, and no thanks to Honda.

I'd find out where my Honda CR-V's oil filter is and try to inspect it,
especially for dripping oil, after every oil change. I think I might say
something to the service advisor at every oil change, too, about the report
above, and ask that he/she have the work double checked. Maybe bring a copy of
the report with me. The service advisor might start thinking me anal, but oh
well. I personally would just not be comfortable right now with the information
available on this.

Based on my and I'm sure others' many experiences with improperly installed oil
filters, anyone with any car should get to know where the oil filter is and know
where to look for leakage. Also, be cautious for the first couple of hours of
driving after any oil change.

As for never buying from Honda again: Many (all?) car makers have had serious,
life-threatening defects at some point in their life. Have they learned from
this? I think so. I can't think of a car maker that has erred so badly re
serious defects that I would not buy from them just because of its serious
defect record.

I'd keep an eye peeled for further studies of this problem, but I wouldn't
reject Honda outright in the future.

 

let's get this straight: some troll spams unsubstantiated drivel on a
newsgroup based on unconfirmable reports alledging a total of 27
vehicles burning - apparently due to filter/exhaust proximity - a
feature that is the norm for a vast majority of modern fwd's - and
you're buying this story? 27 vs. the thousands of fords, gm's &
chryslers that burn every day?

hey, i have some used buffalo fodder i can sell you too. want to buy some?

this is nothing but an astroturf campaign. get wise.

 

Exploding now, are they?

Please post where you read this.

 

Actually, Honda themselves have admitted problems with about 164 vehicles if
i recall. However the problem is with the mechanics doing the oil change.
Maybe it is a bit trickier to do than on other vehicles. But, if you are a
trained mechanic, an oil change shouldnt be too difficult.

 

james, where did you get that number from? can you provide an url?

 

Something funny is going on though. My Integras (86 and 94) have the
filter right over the exhaust virtually guaranteeing that any leaked
or spilled oil will smoke off. I assume Civics are similar. Why are
only new CRVs being singled out? Is the filter nearer to the cylinder
end of the manifold thus increasing temperature? Or something else?

 

On the K-series engine the exhaust manifold is on the back of the engine
and I believe the filter is on the right (looking forward) rear of the
engine - dunno where the catalytic converter is located but it's possible
it takes catalytic converter contact to actually ignite the oil, since even
exhaust heat is marginal for actual ignition of engine oil.

There was also a story from some link here that there was a suspicion that
the factory filter had not been installed with sufficient lubricant on the
seal, causing the old seal to stick to the mating surface.

IMO this stacked and pinched seals is just *bloody* sloppy mechanics - who
here has not run their finger around the oil filter mating surface on every
oil change to clean and check it? I've done dozens of filter changes on
Hondas and pinched seals is simply due to overtightening or insufficient
lubrication of the seal.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Below is a Washington post story I took from the Web just now, I read
a similar report on my local paper, TV carried similar stories. Again
as I said I may be overreacting. I plan to watch my oil level
closely, and I plan to inspect the oil filter following changes, Andre

27 Fires Linked To Oil Changes In Honda CR-V

By Greg Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 9, 2004; Page A01


At least 27 Honda CR-V sport-utility vehicles from the 2003 and 2004
model years burst into flames shortly after getting their first oil
changes, according to records provided to the federal government by
the manufacturer.



While no injuries were reported, many of the vehicles were destroyed,
usually with 10,000 miles or fewer on their odometers.

The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration investigated
the situation and concluded July 1 that the cases were the fault of
dealerships or others who improperly installed oil filters. The agency
agreed with American Honda Motor Co. that oil from the filters most
likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting
-- in some cases as the owners drove the small SUVs home from being
serviced.

"We consulted with Honda. Honda concluded it was a technician's error,
and they have taken steps to make sure service technicians who work on
this vehicle understand that they need to be particularly diligent
when they replace the oil filter," NHTSA spokesman Rae Tyson said.

But auto safety advocates say they're dismayed that the agency didn't
take a stronger stand. "Relatively new cars catching on fire? Running
the risk of injuring their occupants? It's a very unusual and a very
dangerous situation," said Sally Greenberg of Consumers Union,
publisher of Consumer Reports. The fact that a routine oil change
could have such catastrophic results suggests "a dire and a dangerous
situation that both the automaker and the auto safety agency should
have looked much more closely at," she said.

Honda, whose products are consistently rated among the safest
vehicles, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two
most recent CR-V models, spokesman Andy Boyd said. "That's the part
we're still investigating. Honestly, that's something we're still
trying to understand," he said, adding that there have been no major
design changes.

While Boyd said the problem is "absolutely not a design defect," he
said the CR-V's engine is configured "such that there is a higher
likelihood of oil spraying onto the manifold than . . . on other
vehicles." Honda has no plan to recall the vehicles and install a
barrier to block the oil from hitting the hot exhaust manifold, he
said.

"At this stage I don't believe we think a recall is warranted," Boyd
said "We think with a little more communication and education with the
dealers, the problem can be eliminated."

About 140,000 CR-Vs were sold in the United States in 2003. Honda said
22 of them caught fire from the apparent oil filter problem. So far
this year, five owners of 2004 CR-Vs have reported such fires to
NHTSA.

NHTSA's records relate the stories of drivers whose vehicles caught
fire. Their names were blacked out. A woman driving on Braddock Road
in Northern Virginia last January noticed smoke coming from under her
2003 CR-V. A passerby pulled up and told her it was on fire, so she
swerved onto the shoulder, the electrical system shorted out and all
the doors locked. She got out without injury.

A North Carolina family driving to church one Sunday in May noticed
smoke and had to rush to get their two small children unbuckled from
safety seats before their 2004 CR-V went up in flames.

A Georgia man coming home from a flea market stopped when he noticed
smoke, tried to open his hood and "heard an explosion and the front
end just burst into flames," according to records Honda supplied to
NHTSA.

All had recently had their oil changed for the first time. Honda
recently warned its technicians about the need to be careful replacing
oil filters in a regular newsletter mailed out to all 1,008 U.S.
dealer service shops, Boyd said.

Now the company is drafting a letter to the dealerships themselves, as
well as preparing an article for a newsletter sent periodically to
independent repair shops such as Jiffy Lube and Pep Boys. Honda also
plans to change the language on the oil filter itself and its
packaging, warning of the dangers of improper installation.

There are no plans to send warnings to customers who might change the
oil themselves, Boyd said.

The problem is believed to happen one of two ways: The O-ring gasket
on the old oil filter sometimes sticks to the crankcase, and if the
new filter is installed over it, oil can leak around it. Or, if the
gasket on the new filter isn't lubricated properly, it might set
incorrectly and allow oil to leak around it. Then it can spray onto
the hot manifold and burn.

Kay C. Brittain of Jacksonville, Fla., was driving to work from her
first 5,000-mile oil change when she noticed black smoke in her
rearview mirror. She pulled onto the median to turn and go back to the
dealership, but a passing motorist shouted that her 2004 CR-V was on
fire.

A week later, the elderly parents of one of Brittain's co-workers
avoided injury when their 2003 CR-V burst into flames.

Brittain, 56, who learned from Web site chat groups of other such
incidents around the country, said she had no problems with the 2002
CR-V she drove for two years before trading it in for the new model.
Now that she has gotten her dealer to replace the one that burned with
another 2004 CR-V, she has lost her peace of mind.

"It just scares me. Here I'm sitting with a brand new car, and come
5,000 miles I'm going to have to go through it again," she said. "I
don't want this to happen to somebody else. If there is a problem, I
think Honda should acknowledge it and at least check this out and not
write it off.

"I'm just afraid something bad's going to happen. I just want them to
take it seriously."

 

andre,

1. have you ever heard of astroturf?

2. do you know how many "news stories" are submitted every day to the
washpost by interested parties seeking to further the objectives of the
persons that paid them?

3. [most important of all] why do you keep spamming this newsgroup with
this stuff? are /you/ being paid to astroturf?

 

If it is spraying on the cat, that would certainly explain why it is
more likely to burn than cars where it hits a pipe. The sticky gasket
could certainly be contributing but this doesn't sound good to me.
Errors in maintenance can happen. I'm surprised that Honda wouldn't
be designing a shield for this. Maybe they are.

From the article that someone else posted, the incidence of the CRV
fires is down sharply from last year (5 YTD vs. 22 in 2003 with a lot
more of this model on the road this year.) Could be due to better
assembly at the plant or increased care by the mechanics. If the
latter, there is a risk that fires could increase when these vehicles
start being serviced by non-dealer mechanics.

 

5 ytd??? non fatal??? how does this compare with accidents caused by
incorrectly torqued lug nuts? punctures caused by incorrectly inflated
tires? how about lack of washer fluid causing dirty windshields? how
about fatalities caused by distracted cell phone users? dude, get some
perspective.

 

and another thing. my driveway is now soaked with oil because a friend
just brought his toyota over to have me look at a leak. that thing is
gushing. and guess where the oil's blowing? all over the catalyst &
exhaust! apparently they're been driving it in that condition for
nearly a year - 1 quart every 100 miles.

now, should toyota do a recall because when the main crank case seal
goes, it leaks oil that can blow onto the hot catalyst? how about the
fire risk? other than having the engine at the rear and catalyst at the
front, can you name any engine configuration where this is /not/ a
potential "problem"?

 

It seems all/most the cars were on fire after the first oil changes. Is it
due to the stuff Honda put in the new car mixed with oil to lubricate the
engine. The oil mixed with this stuff leaks when the first oil change was
done carelessly and the mix caught on fire ?

Hai Pham

 

That is not at all what Honda say is happening. The old filter gasket was
not removed, consequently a good seal is not achieved with the new filter.
The oil starts blasting past the gasket out the edges of the filter,
spraying onto the exhaust system and catching fire. We're not talking about
a little drip here. Oil pressure is measured in pounds. It can pump out
the whole load of oil in a very short time.

Checking your oil level won't prevent this. All the oil will blow out
almost all at once. Checking the filter after an oil change might, if you
know what to look for.

There is no recall because it is purely and simply incompetent maintenance.

 

anyone know how to do an oil change?? when you pull the filter off
you are supposed to wipe the block with a rag where the filter goes
on. standard practice forever. it keeps stupid stuff like this from
happening. This problem is simply the fault of lazy techs.!!
Chip

 

I put at least some of the blame on dealers overworking and underpaying their
techs, such that they rush, are tired, and so commit the equivalent of
malpractice.

 

The oil change guy is frequently an entry level job anyway, and not a
real Honda-trained technician at all. He might aspire to that, but he
starts out paying his dues with oil changes.

 

doesn't matter, the tech should take pride in his or her work
either way. if they can't do that then they need to get out of the
business!
Chip

 

This is a nice sentiment but I don't think it's practical, particularly at
dealer shops.

The more repairs a tech cranks out, the more valued he is by the dealer. If a
comeback results and is disguisable so as to make more money for the
blood-sucking dealerships, the the tech's bosses don't care. In fact, they might
even encourage slipshod repairs that aren't obviously slipshod, so as to bring
in more business.

Same thing is happening with MDs: They're forced to see more patients to the
detriment of the care they give, IMO.

Lawyers have always been corrupt, so no need to point out the similarities
there.

Just my opinion.