27 Fires Linked To Oil Changes In Honda CR-V (washingtonpost.com)27 Fires Linked To Oil Changes In Honda CR-V By Greg Schneider Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, July 9, 2004; Page A01 At least 27 Honda CR-V sport-utility vehicles from the 2003 and 2004 model years burst into flames shortly after getting their first oil changes, according to records provided to the federal government by the manufacturer. While no injuries were reported, many of the vehicles were destroyed, usually with 10,000 miles or fewer on their odometers. The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration investigated the situation and concluded July 1 that the cases were the fault of dealerships or others who improperly installed oil filters. The agency agreed with American Honda Motor Co. that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting -- in some cases as the owners drove the small SUVs home from being serviced. "We consulted with Honda. Honda concluded it was a technician's error, and they have taken steps to make sure service technicians who work on this vehicle understand that they need to be particularly diligent when they replace the oil filter," NHTSA spokesman Rae Tyson said. But auto safety advocates say they're dismayed that the agency didn't take a stronger stand. "Relatively new cars catching on fire? Running the risk of injuring their occupants? It's a very unusual and a very dangerous situation," said Sally Greenberg of Consumers Union, publisher of Consumer Reports. The fact that a routine oil change could have such catastrophic results suggests "a dire and a dangerous situation that both the automaker and the auto safety agency should have looked much more closely at," she said. Honda, whose products are consistently rated among the safest vehicles, doesn't know why the fires are happening in only the two most recent CR-V models, spokesman Andy Boyd said. "That's the part we're still investigating. Honestly, that's something we're still trying to understand," he said, adding that there have been no major design changes. While Boyd said the problem is "absolutely not a design defect," he said the CR-V's engine is configured "such that there is a higher likelihood of oil spraying onto the manifold than . . . on other vehicles." Honda has no plan to recall the vehicles and install a barrier to block the oil from hitting the hot exhaust manifold, he said. "At this stage I don't believe we think a recall is warranted," Boyd said "We think with a little more communication and education with the dealers, the problem can be eliminated." About 140,000 CR-Vs were sold in the United States in 2003. Honda said 22 of them caught fire from the apparent oil filter problem. So far this year, five owners of 2004 CR-Vs have reported such fires to NHTSA. NHTSA's records relate the stories of drivers whose vehicles caught fire. Their names were blacked out. A woman driving on Braddock Road in Northern Virginia last January noticed smoke coming from under her 2003 CR-V. A passerby pulled up and told her it was on fire, so she swerved onto the shoulder, the electrical system shorted out and all the doors locked. She got out without injury. A North Carolina family driving to church one Sunday in May noticed smoke and had to rush to get their two small children unbuckled from safety seats before their 2004 CR-V went up in flames. A Georgia man coming home from a flea market stopped when he noticed smoke, tried to open his hood and "heard an explosion and the front end just burst into flames," according to records Honda supplied to NHTSA. All had recently had their oil changed for the first time. Honda recently warned its technicians about the need to be careful replacing oil filters in a regular newsletter mailed out to all 1,008 U.S. dealer service shops, Boyd said. Now the company is drafting a letter to the dealerships themselves, as well as preparing an article for a newsletter sent periodically to independent repair shops such as Jiffy Lube and Pep Boys. Honda also plans to change the language on the oil filter itself and its packaging, warning of the dangers of improper installation. There are no plans to send warnings to customers who might change the oil themselves, Boyd said. The problem is believed to happen one of two ways: The O-ring gasket on the old oil filter sometimes sticks to the crankcase, and if the new filter is installed over it, oil can leak around it. Or, if the gasket on the new filter isn't lubricated properly, it might set incorrectly and allow oil to leak around it. Then it can spray onto the hot manifold and burn. Kay C. Brittain of Jacksonville, Fla., was driving to work from her first 5,000-mile oil change when she noticed black smoke in her rearview mirror. She pulled onto the median to turn and go back to the dealership, but a passing motorist shouted that her 2004 CR-V was on fire. A week later, the elderly parents of one of Brittain's co-workers avoided injury when their 2003 CR-V burst into flames. Brittain, 56, who learned from Web site chat groups of other such incidents around the country, said she had no problems with the 2002 CR-V she drove for two years before trading it in for the new model. Now that she has gotten her dealer to replace the one that burned with another 2004 CR-V, she has lost her peace of mind. "It just scares me. Here I'm sitting with a brand new car, and come 5,000 miles I'm going to have to go through it again," she said. "I don't want this to happen to somebody else. If there is a problem, I think Honda should acknowledge it and at least check this out and not write it off. "I'm just afraid something bad's going to happen. I just want them to take it seriously." © 2004 The Washington Post Company
Gordon McGrew sez... Yes - I am currently researching for my next motor vehicle and was very seriously considering a Honda CR-V because it is rated very high on Consumer Reports as well as Edmunds and Kelly's Blue Book. However, what I would like to know is this. Did Honda ever redesign the CR-V to prevent that type of disaster from ever happening again? As a consumer, I am currently afraid of the Honda product CR-V SUV motor vehicle. __________ ===fish=== ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The '07s are redesigned and I would think that they would do anything practical to reduce this risk. There were a few possible contributing causes: 1. Oil filters installed too tight at the factory or some other problem that caused the gasket to stick to the mounting plate when the filter was removed at the first oil change. 2. Service techs not noticing the sticking gasket and installing the new filter with its gasket on top of the old one. This caused massive and immediate leaks (which the tech also should have noticed.) 3. Because of the layout in the engine compartment, the leaking oil landed on the exhaust which caused it to catch fire after a few miles. #1 can happen from time to time on any car, thus making it critical that service techs guard against #2. #3 is true of other Honda vehicles (and perhaps other makes.) Not clear why this caused CRVs to catch fire more than any other such car. This was a little mysterious, but the problem was easily avoidable with a little care. The problem was never very common (22 out of 140,000 2003s = 1 per 6000+) and doesn't seem to have occurred recently indicating that the problem has been solved one way or the other. If the CRV meets your needs, you can buy it with confidence. This minor glitch from the past isn't a factor. (By minor, I mean that we are talking about a couple dozen vehicles out of millions that Honda has sold. I'm sure those few incidents were dramatic although calling it an explosion would be overstating it a bit.)
I was just thinking the same thing - doesn't matter HOW your car is designed, if someone does a half-assed job on the maintenance, you're going to have problems.
The problem had to do with the gasket on the oil filter sticking to the engine when the filter was changed. It was not a design flaw with the vehicle itself, but rather a combination of defective oil filters installed at the factory and lazy mechanics in the dealer's garages who didn't clean the surface prior to installation of the replacement filter. The fact that you had to dig back to 2004 to find a write up of this should indicate to you that its not a current problem.
E Meyer respectfully sez... A major part of researching motor vehicles involves investigating it's recent past to see what issues have occurred and how it could relate to my confidence in their (highly rated) products. I am thankful for all the responses to my postings here. I am not going to choose a vehicle based on one single finding, but on a combination of things that together will help me decide which vehicle I feel confident that would provide a pleasant driving experience for a great many years. My current vehicle, a 1997 Saturn (10½ years old, bought it in Summer '96) = reliable and I am hoping with proper research to find the same in my next motor vehicle. An educated customer = the best customer because I walk in with my printout, like I did 10½ years ago saying, this is what I want. Cheers! _________ ===fish=== ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Gordon McGrew sez... Not when there are reports of fires and explosions!! You take your own advice - for my hard earned money, my research has yielded shocking results. Oh, I beg to differ!! Let's see you pay for a motor vehicle knowing the risks from the past. Listen to me: I will be doing more research into this!! I want answers from Honda if they expect me to even look in their direction as I drive past their lot on the way to the Toyota dealership. I want to ask you to re-read the report of the explosion as the gentleman was attempting to open the hood and the entire front end exploded into flames. I just can't ignore the RECENT past - it was only a few years ago! Yes, Honda redesigned the CR-V - but I want answers. I want to know specifics of this redesign. _________ ===fish=== ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I am not at all surprised that the dealers can screw up something as simple as oil change. I took my brand new car in for its first oil change. When it was all done and I started the car, there was a lot of smoke coming out of the hood. They said the mechanic spilled some oil on the engine. So they flush the oil off but I could still smell oil burning the next 30 miles. Later I also found the engine was overfilled. Now I do my own oil change and never have the same problem.
If you consider a couple dozen incidents from two years ago to be shocking, you are going to have a hard time finding any car that measures up to your standards. If you are concerned about safety I would pay a lot more attention to crash test results and insurance loss records. Your chances of being in a serious accident are much greater than suffering injury as a result of this "defect." 50,000 people are killed in traffic accidents each year. No one was even injured as a result of these CRV fires. If your concern is financial loss, Honda and/or the dealer would be liable for this type of damage as well as any injuries which might result. That is there incentive to make sure the problem isn't repeated. If I was in the market for a new car and the CRV met my needs, I wouldn't even consider these reports as a factor. The problem is just too obscure. Please do. We love informative posts because it increases our knowledge and helps other Honda owners. However, the issue you have raised is known and does not appear to be currently relevant. If you find new information to the contrary, please do post it. Since the new CRV is selling gangbusters, I doubt that they are going to spend much time on a personal reply to you. That goes double if you come off as a nut, which you are dangerously close to doing. Your tone and unrealistic expectations lead me to guess that you are going to run into a dealership and demand that the salesman give you a full accounting of this matter. If you are this naive, I will tell you right now that you are unlikely to find anyone at the dealership that knows as much as you do already. And he apparently suffered not even singed eyebrows. There is very limited amount of stuff in the front which can explode. Maybe a pint of well contained gasoline. I don't doubt that at least some of these cars burned to the ground, but the driver in each of these occurrences got enough warning to stop the car and get everyone out. That is almost always the case with engine fires. But they don't seem to be happening anymore, are they? Something has changed and it isn't an issue anymore, not even for owners of 2003 and 2004 CRVs. Are you going to buy a '03 or '04? If so, you might want to do more research, but I don't think you are going to find anything else on this. If you are going to buy a 2007 CRV, it is a completely different vehicle. The incidents from 2003 are completely irrelevant. I'm sure Honda will send the chief engineer right over to explain it to you.
LOL, you chose a Saturn after extensive research? Did the hundreds of first person reports in the Saturn newsgroup of oil burning, failed timing chains, transmission failures, cracked heads, blown head gaskets, high temp readings, failed motor mounts and inoperative tail lights factor into your decision? Is it the single cam or the double cam engine?
Gordon McGrew sez... Internet research, yes. I recall reading about that! I have been fortunate to have the pleasure of a worry-free experience. Yes, I am planning on test driving the CR-V. I am just researching and looking for answers. On the positive side, I like the design of the CR-V. The instrumentation cluster looks very attractive and well thought out. Of course, in a few months, the 2008 Saturn Vue Hybrid V6 is coming. Gordon, you do have a valid point and I understand what it is you are saying. For the CR-V to maintain their position at the top of the Consumer Reports list is an achievement, as well as the Toyota RAV-4. This will be a test of what I like about each and what I decide will be ultimately based on those decisions. I'm sure the test drive will help highlight what I need to know.
Yes: of incompetent or lazy service techs. That shouldn't deter you from buying the vehicle, it should only deter you from having it serviced anywhere but a shop that you fully trust.
I don't think you can go wrong with either the Toyota or the Honda. Choose whichever fits your needs best. There is no guaranty that either will be reliable and defect-free for you, but you have to go with the odds. Subaru would also be worthy of consideration. The differences in reliability and durability between these cars would be small and it really isn't predictable which might turn out to be best over the course of the next ten years. The bet strategy IMO is to consider only cars from the manufacturers with the best reliability histories and then pick the one that is best suited to your wants and needs. Good luck and please do give us a report on what you find and how you decide.
fish wrote: <snip troll> didn't you pop up this time last year? how much do you get paid to do this stuff?
fish wrote: how do you know this? you know that contradicts your first statement, right? here's how it is kiddo; time you did some homework. details are all available on the net if you know where to look. they're even available in dead tree format if you want to pay for it. so, go away, find out what the hell you're talking about, then get back to us. if you don't know what you're talking about, you're just being an ass.
jim beam <-entire worthless crap snipped-> If you can't offer any constructive dialog, then you are trolling for a flame war. <-snip->
jim beam typed: It was an article from the Washington Post. Geesh! I post a newpaper article and suddenly the trolls start coming out like roaches!
correction: you post a scare story with the title "CR-V Fires and Explosions". which is "based" on an article 2 years old and proven to be sensationalist nonsense. on top of that, you have the temerity to dress this up as a request for easily accessible information that you're too damned lazy [or stupid] to find for yourself. i say you're a trolling dumb-ass.
