92 Accord Soft? Brake Pedal

Discussion in 'Accord' started by eddie, May 18, 2006.

  1. eddie

    eddie Guest

    Hi,
    I see the following behavior on my '92 Accord:

    - Brakes seem to function normally. Car comes to a complete stop with
    a moderate amount of pressure on the brake pedal. At this point the
    pedal is not 'on the floor'.
    - At this point, if I maintain the same pedal pressure as was required
    to stop the car, the brake pedal does not move; it stays off of the
    floor. However, if I press harder, the pedal goes to the floor, with
    resistance, but definitely goes to the floor.
    - Pumping the pedal does not seem to affect this. I can always push it
    to the floor if I try.

    I think that this is not normal. But some things on the car change so
    slowly over time that I forget 'how they used to be'.

    Anyway, from reading other posts, it sounds like this could be:
    - bad brake master cylinder
    - excessively worn rear (drum) brakes

    Things I have done (recently):
    - check front brakes: plenty of pad left
    - bleed front brakes (didn't change the behavior)

    Car/Brake history:
    - car has 140k miles on it
    - front brake pads have 80k miles, but still plenty of pad left
    - brake master cylinder was replaced some time in the late 90's
    - I'm pretty sure that the rear (drum) brakes are original
    - brake fluid has been changed several times over the years, but not
    religously once a year or anything.

    Any input is greatly appreciated.

    By the way. I've replaced the front brake pads before, but I have zero
    experience working with drum brakes. If 'adjusting' the drum brakes is
    called for, where does that rate on the difficulty scale compared to
    front (disc) brake pad replacement.
     
    eddie, May 18, 2006
    #1
  2. eddie

    TeGGeR® Guest



    Bad master cylinder, or a leak somewhere. Does the master cylinder level go
    down over time? If not, the "new" master cylinder is bad. If it does,
    there's a leak. Don't know where you live, but you're at the right age to
    have holed brake lines...
     
    TeGGeR®, May 18, 2006
    #2
  3. eddie

    jim beam Guest

    rear drums have nothing to do with it - it's bad master cylinder. if
    it's a genuine honda m/c, you can buy seal kits.
     
    jim beam, May 18, 2006
    #3
  4. eddie

    eddie Guest

    Thanks for thre responses TeGGer and Jim.

    The brake master cyclinder fluid level does NOT go down over time.

    I'm in Colorado. The car had about 18 months in Virginia, then the
    rest here in CO. It's really dry here. They don't salt the roads here
    in the winter, but they have been using magnesium chloride for the past
    several years. I'm not sure what that does to car metal...

    So it is the master cylinder.

    I think that the current (replacement) master cylinder is genuine honda
    (because the service was done at a honda dealer), so I'll look into a
    seal kit. Thanks for that tip.

    BTW, TeGGer, your FAQ (especially the brake part) is really helpful.
    Thanks for making it.
     
    eddie, May 18, 2006
    #4
  5. eddie

    eddie Guest

    Aaarrrrggghhhh.
    I bought a new master cylinder (from honda dealer) and installed it and
    bled all four brake lines. The problem (see original post) is still
    there! Gasp.

    I've read on other posts and in my Chilton's book that a rear (drum)
    brake problem can cause a long/soft brake pedal. I tried to inspect
    the rear brakes, but I could not remove the drum. I was able to break
    the drum free and it moves about an eighth of an inch, but will not
    come off. I assume that I have a groove in the drum and the brake shoe
    is in there, preventing the drum from coming off. I am going to buy a
    brake spoon and try and 'retract' the shoes (via the adjuster port on
    the back of the hub) so I can get the drum off and inspect.

    In the mean time, anybody have any ideas/suggestions?

    -I'm pretty sure that there is not a leak in the system (I do not
    notice any brake fluid loss or see any signs of leak).

    - Are the brake lines metal all the way, or are there rubber sections
    that could have 'aneruisms' (bulges) ?

    - Re johnin's comment about a new m/c possibly being defective, that's
    depressing...

    -The emergency brake does work (it holds the car on a hill). Does that
    tell you anything about the state of adjustment of the rear drum
    brakes? Or is that irelevant becase the e brake uses a cable and not
    the hydraulics ? ...

    Thanks for any comments.
     
    eddie, May 22, 2006
    #5
  6. eddie

    Graham W Guest

    You certainly need to back off the rear shoes with the tool as the wear
    inside
    the drum leaves a ridge at the outside edge which impedes the drum from
    coming free and off. This edge ridge can be rusty, too, which again
    increases the apparent depth a fraction and can be sharp so watch you
    don't get a cut. Keep working the drum if it is reluctant to release.

    The handbrake is a different mechanism but make sure the lever is fully
    down (off), for the same reason.
     
    Graham W, May 23, 2006
    #6
  7. eddie

    jim beam Guest

    but how well did you bleed them?
    keep pulling. you'll be looking at a new drum and shoes anyway by the
    sound of it, so don't fret too much about damaging stuff. replace the
    shoes with a kit that gives you all new springs, retainers, etc.
    manchesterhonda.com sells them.
    if the pedal goes to the floor, it's either air lock, defective flex
    hose [really dangerous] or something like a cracked caliper. drum
    adjustment is not usually a problem.
    how many clicks on the lever?
    no, it's relevant because they both use the same adjuster inside the
    drum. it's possible the adjuster's locked and isn't doing its job, but
    that would definitely affect the hand brake.
     
    jim beam, May 23, 2006
    #7
  8. eddie

    eddie Guest

    Thanks for the comments Graham and Jim.

    Re bleeding. I thought that I fully bled the lines because the new
    fluid was noticeably clearer than the old fluid, and I flushed until I
    saw clear fluid. Flushing some more is worth trying though.

    Last night I was able to get the drum off of the right rear wheel
    (after using the adjuster to retract the shoes a little bit). I didn't
    really do anything, it was basically exploratory surgery to make sure
    that the shoes/drum were not trashed. The shoes seemed to have plenty
    of material left on them (~1/8 inch. I need to check to see what the
    lower wear limit is). I couldn't break the left drum free and I didn't
    have 8mm bolts handy.

    (After my mucking around with the adjusters last night), the e-brake
    takes about 5 clicks to engage it to where I normally do. I'm in a
    flat parking lot now, so I cannot do a good test. If you pull really
    hard (harder than I normally do), you can get 7 clicks.

    I've sort of thrown in the towel. I've made an appointment with a
    local honda shop to look at the brakes and the clutch (separate story).
    I'll try bleeding again one last time tonight. I'll let you know
    what, if anything, they find with the brakes.
     
    eddie, May 23, 2006
    #8
  9. eddie

    TeGGeR® Guest



    You've got a rust ridge all right. You can push the adjuster out of the way
    with a bent coat hanger, then just use a screwdriver to back the star wheel
    all the way in. I've not yet encountered a normally-worn, unseized drum
    that would not come off when the adjuster was retracted all the way.




    Not aneurisms, no. But sometimes they leak where they join the steel parts.
    And thre steel sections can corrode to the point of leakage where they
    attach to their brackets.

    In any case, *if* you had a leak, the master cylinder level would be going
    down, which it appears it's not.




    And quite unlikely.




    They could be adjusted well enough to hold the car, but not quite enough to
    make a high pedal.
     
    TeGGeR®, May 23, 2006
    #9
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