'89 CRX starts then stalls

[ThomasE]

Lately my ’89 Honda CRX has been having trouble starting. When I crank the
engine it seems to start normally but then within 1-2 seconds the engine
immediately stalls. Pressing the gas pedal makes no difference. Usually,
after several attempts it starts. Once it starts then it drives fine. It
seems that sometimes turning the key completely off (cycling the power)
helps it start but I’m not sure. It started as an intermittent infrequent
problem 1 month ago but has been happening quite often lately. Any ideas?
The car has 250K miles.

 

[Tegger]

Lately my ’89 Honda CRX has been having trouble starting. When I crank
the engine it seems to start normally but then within 1-2 seconds the
engine immediately stalls. Pressing the gas pedal makes no difference.
Usually, after several attempts it starts. Once it starts then it
drives fine. It seems that sometimes turning the key completely off
(cycling the power) helps it start but I’m not sure. It started as an
intermittent infrequent problem 1 month ago but has been happening
quite often lately. Any ideas? The car has 250K miles.

Summer must be coming. The Main Relay problems are back!

Resolder it or replace it.

 

[motsco_]

Lately my ’89 Honda CRX has been having trouble starting. When I crank the
engine it seems to start normally but then within 1-2 seconds the engine
immediately stalls. Pressing the gas pedal makes no difference. Usually,
after several attempts it starts. Once it starts then it drives fine. It
seems that sometimes turning the key completely off (cycling the power)
helps it start but I’m not sure. It started as an intermittent infrequent
problem 1 month ago but has been happening quite often lately. Any ideas?
The car has 250K miles.

----------------------------

I think it's the ignition switch. Search google and see if the symptoms
for the GREAT HONDA IGNITION SWITCH RECALL are the same as yours.

'Curly'

 

[ThomasE]

I read on various posts that it may be the main relay. Apparently the main
relay feeds power to the fuel pump. I found a schematic for the relay and
it shows that the relay is activated by 2 sources, the starter and the
ECU. Normally when you turn the ignition on the ECU closes the relay for 2
seconds. Then when you crank the engine the ignition sends current directly
to close the relay (perhaps because the ECU cannot do it while the engine
is been crancked-voltage drop). Then once the engine starts the ECU is
supposed to keep the relay closed. Well, I read that the soldering on the
relay connections gets bad with time. So if the soldering that connects
the ECU to the main relay is bad the car would behave exactly as it does,
that is, when I crank the ignition the relay is closed by the ingnition
and fuel pump starts but then once the engine starts the ECU signal does
not reach the relay, the fuel pump stops running, within a few seconds
fuel pressure drops and engine stalls.
So I’m off to get out the main relay see if I can see any failed
soldering. Actually if the car is malfunctioning this morning I’ll first
test the theory by measuring the voltage that reaches the fuel pump during
the ignition sequence…

 

[ThomasE]

Well, I just took out the main relay and resoldered all the connections.
The engine started normally this morning before I did any work on the car
so I did not get the chance to test the faulty relay hypotheis. In any
case things are ok so far after resoldering the main relay connections.
The engine has started 4 times so far in the morning when it was cool and
now at noon when it was hot insiode the car (I read that cabin temperature
has something to do with the erratic behavior of the relay). We’ll se how
it plays out…

As a note to anybody else who tries to take out the main relay on an ’89
CRX, note that the main relay is not very accessible, but I was able to
take it out without removing the dashboard. The relay is to the left of
the fuse box and I was able to remove it by removing the coin holder, the
hood latch handle and one of the dashboard screws (one close to the hood
latch handle). Removing these 3 things gave me just enough room to fit a
regular wrench barely enough to start turning the one screw that holds the
main relay.

 

[ThomasE]

Well, I just took out the main relay and resoldered all the connections.
The engine started normally this morning before I did any work on the car
so I did not get the chance to test the faulty relay hypotheis. In any
case things are ok so far after resoldering the main relay connections.
The engine has started 4 times so far in the morning when it was cool and
now at noon when it was hot insiode the car (I read that cabin temperature
has something to do with the erratic behavior of the relay). We’ll se how
it plays out…

As a note to anybody else who tries to take out the main relay on an ’89
CRX, note that the main relay is not very accessible, but I was able to
take it out without removing the dashboard. The relay is to the left of
the fuse box and I was able to remove it by removing the coin holder, the
hood latch handle and one of the dashboard screws (one close to the hood
latch handle). Removing these 3 things gave me just enough room to fit a
regular wrench barely enough to start turning the one screw that holds the
main relay.

 

[Tegger]

Well, I just took out the main relay and resoldered all the
connections. The engine started normally this morning before I did any
work on the car so I did not get the chance to test the faulty relay
hypotheis. In any case things are ok so far after resoldering the main
relay connections. The engine has started 4 times so far in the
morning when it was cool and now at noon when it was hot insiode the
car (I read that cabin temperature has something to do with the
erratic behavior of the relay). We’ll se how it plays out…

As a note to anybody else who tries to take out the main relay on an
’89 CRX, note that the main relay is not very accessible, but I was
able to take it out without removing the dashboard. The relay is to
the left of the fuse box and I was able to remove it by removing the
coin holder, the hood latch handle and one of the dashboard screws
(one close to the hood latch handle). Removing these 3 things gave me
just enough room to fit a regular wrench barely enough to start
turning the one screw that holds the main relay.

Two thumbs up for you, young fella. From a soupcon of advice you have
managed to cook up an entire meal.

The "not very accessible" location you refer to is shown here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelay.html

You didn't happen to take any pics, did you?

 

[ThomasE]

Thanks Tegger. Yes, I did take some pictures but they may not be that
helpful as advice. I can send them to you though if you’re interested. I
wish I had seen your pictures earlier. When I first tried to locate the
main relay based on the honda shop manual, I found some device that looked
like a relay right above the hood latch. Thinking that that was the main
relay, I removed it, at which point I saw that it had only 4 terminals so
it did not match the honda manual description. So then I started looking
again and it took me at least 10” to just see the tip of the relay from
underneath the dashboard.
The car has now started 8 times without incident since the resoldering so
I hope that was it.

 

[jim beam]

Thanks Tegger. Yes, I did take some pictures but they may not be that
helpful as advice. I can send them to you though if you’re interested. I
wish I had seen your pictures earlier. When I first tried to locate the
main relay based on the honda shop manual, I found some device that looked
like a relay right above the hood latch. Thinking that that was the main
relay, I removed it, at which point I saw that it had only 4 terminals so
it did not match the honda manual description. So then I started looking
again and it took me at least 10” to just see the tip of the relay from
underneath the dashboard.
The car has now started 8 times without incident since the resoldering so
I hope that was it.

if the relay has not before been replaced, it's #1 candidate. happens
to all civics/crx's this vintage. personally, i replace the relay, then
resolder the old one and toss it in the trunk as a spare. hopefully,
it'll stay there unused for another 10+ years.

 

[samjones]

Could someone post a partnumber and suggested location to order a main
relay for my 88 crx.


<<<
if the relay has not before been replaced, it's #1 candidate. happens
to all civics/crx's this vintage. personally, i replace the relay,
then
resolder the old one and toss it in the trunk as a spare. hopefully,
it'll stay there unused for another 10+ years.

 

[Elle]

See the three online OEM parts dealers listed near the top
of http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id9.html

 

[Tegger]

Thanks Tegger. Yes, I did take some pictures but they may not be that
helpful as advice. I can send them to you though if you’re interested.

Always. Just unmunge my address. I can add them to the Main Relay page.

I wish I had seen your pictures earlier. When I first tried to locate
the main relay based on the honda shop manual, I found some device
that looked like a relay right above the hood latch.

The Honda technical drawings, while of excellent quality (which, being
involved in technical illustration myself, is one reason I love Honda),
still cannot accurately depict locations in 3D.

Thinking that
that was the main relay, I removed it, at which point I saw that it
had only 4 terminals so it did not match the honda manual description.
So then I started looking again and it took me at least 10” to just
see the tip of the relay from underneath the dashboard.
The car has now started 8 times without incident since the resoldering
so I hope that was it.

I hope so too. It's an annoying problem, and one that just about every EFI
Honda ever built eventually suffers.

 

[ThomasE]

Darn! Still problems

I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
started on the 4th try.

So what else can it be?

Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts fail or
is it pretty much the soldering that fails. I think it is very unlikely
that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old one. My wife
was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so I was not present
to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed for 2 seconds when the
ignition was turned on.

I’m reluctant to blame the fuel pump because the fuel pump does obviously
start at least for a short while with every starting attempt and that
builds enough fuel pressure to get the engine going for a second or so. On
the other hand if it is the relay why would it make contact initially and
then fail? Perhaps, just perhaps, the ignition signal that tells the relay
to close is stronger than the signal it is given by the ECU? That would
explain it, ie. the ignition signal is strong enough to make the relay
close with a good contact but then the let’s say weaker ECU signal fails
to maintain the relay closed (or at least closed with enough pressure for
a borderline relay contact to work) ??

I basically see 3 options:
1. Wait for the problem to reappear long enough that I can get a voltmeter
hooked up to the fuel pump during the ignition cycle to do a relay vs fuel
pump differential diagnosis.
2. Go buy main relay and change it
3. Go buy fuel pump and change it

Any ideas?

 

[jim beam]

Darn! Still problems

I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
started on the 4th try.

So what else can it be?

Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts fail or
is it pretty much the soldering that fails. I think it is very unlikely
that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old one. My wife
was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so I was not present
to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed for 2 seconds when the
ignition was turned on.

I’m reluctant to blame the fuel pump because the fuel pump does obviously
start at least for a short while with every starting attempt and that
builds enough fuel pressure to get the engine going for a second or so. On
the other hand if it is the relay why would it make contact initially and
then fail? Perhaps, just perhaps, the ignition signal that tells the relay
to close is stronger than the signal it is given by the ECU? That would
explain it, ie. the ignition signal is strong enough to make the relay
close with a good contact but then the let’s say weaker ECU signal fails
to maintain the relay closed (or at least closed with enough pressure for
a borderline relay contact to work) ??

I basically see 3 options:
1. Wait for the problem to reappear long enough that I can get a voltmeter
hooked up to the fuel pump during the ignition cycle to do a relay vs fuel
pump differential diagnosis.
2. Go buy main relay and change it
3. Go buy fuel pump and change it

Any ideas?

do you get a code? in my experience, the relay derived no-start
condition is always accompanied by a code 16.

 

[ThomasE]

No codes now. My wife did not check for codes when it last happened
tonight. But from what I recall the '89 CRX would store a code 16 between
starts until the code is cleared right?

 

[jim beam]

No codes now. My wife did not check for codes when it last happened
tonight. But from what I recall the '89 CRX would store a code 16 between
starts until the code is cleared right?

yes, it'll be there for at least 3 starts.

regarding resoldering, i used a 60W hakko soldering iron with a large
thermal inertia for mine because some parts of the relay are large,
copper and suck heat faster than a normal low wattage electrical iron
can pump it in. i'm not suggesting you didn't do a bad job when
resoldering yours, but i /do/ suggest that it's hard to do a /good/ job!

 

[motsco_]

Darn! Still problems

I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls. Finally
started on the 4th try.

-----------------------------------

Honda recall a billion Ignition Switches about 8 years after yours went
on the road. Might be a clue.

Has it ever stalled while it was running, or only while starting?

I diagnose a bad MAIN RELAY this way: Turn the switch to II. If you
don't hear the fuel pump run for 3 seconds, smack the dash with your
fist (or slam the driver's door) and if the relay runs, you know you've
got the bad solder joints. Knowing you can smack the dash to make the
fuel pump spin will also prevent you from being stranded at the 7-Eleven
on a warm day. It's much simpler than filling the car with PARTY ICE to
chill the relay (which would work, BTW). If your fuel pump is only
running on position III, it's likely the switch, as I suggested a few
days ago.

Here's the Civic version of the recall:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x02-031e.pdf

'Curly'

 

[motsco_]

-----------------------------------

Honda recall a billion Ignition Switches about 8 years after yours went
on the road. Might be a clue.

Has it ever stalled while it was running, or only while starting?

I diagnose a bad MAIN RELAY this way: Turn the switch to II. If you
don't hear the fuel pump run for 3 seconds, smack the dash with your
fist (or slam the driver's door) and if the relay runs, you know you've
got the bad solder joints. Knowing you can smack the dash to make the
fuel pump spin will also prevent you from being stranded at the 7-Eleven
on a warm day. It's much simpler than filling the car with PARTY ICE to
chill the relay (which would work, BTW). If your fuel pump is only
running on position III, it's likely the switch, as I suggested a few
days ago.

Here's the Civic version of the recall:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x02-031e.pdf

'Curly'

--------------------------------

This (somewhat related) page about Civic wiring might help with your
diagnosis, if your fusebox is at all similar:

http://www.geocities.com/ng_randolph/Civic/civic_info.html

'Curly'

 

[Tegger]

Darn! Still problems

I guess resoldering the relay did not do it. Still exhibiting the same
behavior this evening engine starts then after a second it stalls.
Finally started on the 4th try.

So what else can it be?

Does the actual relay go bad often? That is, do the relay contacts
fail or is it pretty much the soldering that fails.

You raise a good point. I do not know the answer to that question.

I think it is very
unlikely that my new solder is bad in exactly the same way as the old
one. My wife was the one who experienced the malfunction this time so
I was not present to hear if at least the fuel pump was getting primed
for 2 seconds when the ignition was turned on.

You need to use the clicks of the relay to tell if it's bad. When the relay
goes bad, one or more of the clicks is always missing, so it's a handy
diagnstics tool. This is mentioned quite a number of times in the FAQ pages
on the subject.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#mainrelay

Every single time you (or another driver) start the car, place your hand on
the relay to feel the clicks as they happen. If one of the clicks is
missing during the instances when the car stalls, the relay is not actually
fixed.

In your case, I suspect the third click is missing. That's the one which
happens the instant you turn the key to "III". This third click can be hard
to hear on account of it occurring the instant the starter kicks in.

 

[ThomasE]

It so happens that I used the same exact soldering iron (the only one I
got). Probably unlikely that resoldering would leave the relay contacts in
the same borderline situation (sometimes working sometimes not).