89 Civic odd, intermittent starting issue...

I really think it is the contacts in the starter. The good news it is
only about a $5 fix; at least here in TX. After you take the starter
off, take off the three phillip screws on the back end of the
solenoid. Once the cover is off there is a copper disk with a spring
that will come out. There are two starter contacts are inside the
solenoid housing. The one on the battery side is probably the one that
is worn out. Replace both of them. I got mine at a local
starter/alternator shop. Just be sure when you install the new ones,
that they are "level." I consider starter contacts and alternator
brushes as "preventative maintanance" because they are so easy and
cheap to replace. Other than those two things, NipponDenso starters
and alternators are bulletproof.

 

Howdies.

This one has me stumped so perhaps someone has the expertise or a
similar experience.

This is an 89 with 150k miles. Just had major service: new dist. cap
and wires, battery, belts, plugs, etc. Major tune up in other words.
But every once in a while, here's what happens:

I turn on the key, everything lights, I hear the fuel pump whirr, engine
check light goes out, turn it to Start...nothing. No selenoid click
like in the old days on bad starters...just nothing.

Turn the key off, turn it on again, wait for engine check light to go
out...then sometimes it starts (and cranks strong and fires right up)
and sometimes I have to do this a few times before it finally starts.

So I'm thinking...starter starting to go bad? Ignition switch? I have
no idea here...this happens in the winter, summer, when the car has been
sitting for a few days or right after I've driven it a while.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Tom

p.s. I posted because I didn't want to do the typical "it needed that"
trouble-shooting with a mechanic. e.g., replace starter...same
problem..."well, it needed that anyway." replace ignition switch...same
problem..."well, it needed that anyway." On and on until problem is
stumbled upon.... That's a nasty and $$$ game most mechanics seem to
play....

 

Does this happen especially in hot weather after driving awhile?

Ever had the main relay replaced?

Your car so far sounds like it's got the classic symptoms.

On repair or replacement of the main relay:
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

http://www3.telus.net/public/johnings/MainRelay.HTM

http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm

This is a DIY job for the reasonably competent.

My 91 Civic's died in 1999. I replaced it myself, though many swear by
re-soldering the old relay.

This is a famous problem for circa 1990 Hondas.

 

This happen to me '88 HB las year - turn the key to the 'on'
position, and nothing happens in the 'start' position. The
very first thing I did was tighten the battery terminals - presto,
the car is OK, it has been ever since.

 

Um, no, not really. The main relay can cause the engine to fail to
fire, but it can't be the cause of a failure to turn over on the
starter. If there's not even a click from the starter solenoid, it's
likely in the chain that involves the starter switch, often a safety
switch on the clutch or the park position of an automatic, the starter
solenoid itself.

 

Next time it happens, whack the starter with a rod or something
substantial. If it starts on the next attempt, you probably answered
your own question..

JT

(Had a '76 Civic that I nursed that way for almost a year...)

-

 

Very true... One sometimes has to wonder how many starters and/or
batteries have been sold due to lousy terminal connections..

 

I see I missed the fact that the original poster (Kahuna) said he could hear the
fuel pump running and that this problem occurs in all seasons as well as when
the car has been sitting awhile, etc. Both of these also suggest it's not the
main relay.

Are you saying that, upon starting a car, there should be clicks from the fuel
pump solenoid and a solenoid for the starter? So hearing neither points to what
you said?

Thanks for the correction.

 

No, only the starter solenoid will produce an audible click from the
passenger side of the engine when you turn the key to 'start'. The
solenoid is essentially a big relay. If something in the chain from
the ignition switch's 'start' contacts is defective, the solenoid
doesn't close and there's no click. If there is a click but the engine
doesn't turn over, it can be dirty contacts in the solenoid, a bad
spot on the starter motor commutator, or just bad battery connections.

That's where the headlights-on test comes in. If you turn the
headlights on and get someone to watch them while you turn the
engine over, it's a handy diagnostic. If the headlights dim or go out,
the starter is drawing current and you should look for bad battery
connections, bad negative cable ground or a dud battery. If the lights
stay bright, no current is being drawn by the starter, so it's the
solenoid contacts, a starter cummutator segment or something in that
chain.

Some starter solenoid contacts are made in the form of a sort of flat
donut of copper that's deliberately left free to rotate. The idea is
that this way corrosion due to arcing is distributed over a larger
area. Such contacts can develop bad spots where they won't conduct,
while they still have cleaner areas where they will. Thus they work
usually, but occasionally won't.

 

Thanks for all the thoughts so far....

For clarity:

--This is manual so no Parking switches....

--I've kinda checked the clutch switch: I can turn the key to on, then
lightly push the clutch in and out and I can hear the clutch switch make
a little "click" noise. Doesn't mean it's not a bad switch, but I can
hear it working....

The really odd thing is the way it's just now and then: Sometimes, it's
fine if it's been sitting a few days, I'll drive it 2 miles to the
store, come out, and take 3 or 4 attempts at turning it on and off
before it fires up.

And it's not a low battery issue; it's a new battery and when it *does*
crank, it cranks hard and fast and fires right up.

So it's like a loose connection or switch going bad thing someplace.

I guess all I can do is start at the battery terminals and work
backwards tightening, cleaning, and looking for a flakey connection?

Thanks again,

Tom

 

Yes. Also dirty contacts in the starter solenoid. See my post to
Caroline. Also worth a try is inward pressure on the key as you turn
to the start position. Sometimes the little fold-over prongs that hold
switches together get sprung a bit.

Another poster suggests belaboring the starter with a wrench. This can
jar the rotor a little bit and cause a worn out brush to make better
connection. If the starter's rotor has it's shaft protruding from the
housing you can sometimes turn it with similar results and less
violence. If either of the latter techniques works, pull the starter
and check for worn brushes, dirty comutator etc.

 

snip good stuff for conciseness


Thanks, but then what exactly is the click mentioned below for identifying when
the main relay is the problem?

"The engine will usually fire, run for a split second and then stall, as the
remaining fuel under pressure is used up. Continual cranking will only make the
situation worse, with the engine not firing at all in the end. When you turn the
ignition key to position II (ignition on) you should see the PGM-FI indicator on
the dash light up and extinguish. Exactly timed with this lamp, you should hear
a click and the fuel pump turn on and off. If you do not hear a click and the
fuel pump, then the main relay is likely to be at fault."
http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

I re-read your web site and studied the electrical drawing the above site and
now wonder if technically the above paragraph is referring to a (barely
audible?) click from a relay's contacts closing, not a solenoid.

I just tried the above on my fully functioning 1991 Civic LX. I heard what I
think is the fuel pump whirring and then going silent. I'm not sure about the
click. (Didn't want to repeat this too many times, out of concern for the
electrical system in general.)

Obviously I didn't do this diagnostic when my main fuel relay failed in 1999. So
many other symptoms matched that I correctly figured at the time it was the main
fuel
relay.

Sorry to muddy up or sorta "hijack" the thread. Hopefully this will be it.

Updates from the original poster are, as always, welcome.

 

That's the contacts of the second relay in the Main Relay module
dropping out. It's normal, it should do that. The sound comes from
behind the dash near the driver's knee.

Yes. The starter solenoid is more of a clack or clunk, much louder,
and it comes from the engine side of the firewall on the passenger
side. It occurs when you turn the key from 'ignition on' to 'start'.
Normally you'll never hear it over the noise of the starter, it's only
audible if the solenoid closes but the starter doesn't turn.

It's part of a ghastly serenade familiar to those of us who live in
northern climates. RRRRRURrrrurrurrr. ClackRRrrrrr...rurrur.
Clack..rurr Clack. Clack. Clack. "Shit! Get the booster cables!"

Won't hurt it.

 

doesnt the civic of this era have a known issue with the ignition switch?

he said when it does start, it starts quick and strong. IMO, a marginal
wiring connection wouldnt do that. that does leave the starter/solenoid
in the equation, tho.

i would probably...

check all terminal coneections/clean
pull that ignition switch out and take it apart
then id mess with the solenoid.

 

Thank you for explaining. This is very helpful.