2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna

I mean could they make the decision any more freakin difficult? These
are both really really nice vechicles for those in the minivan market,
and choosing between them is damned hard.

I wanted to share my notes for any other poor bastard facing the same
paralyzing decision. Yes, I'm an engineer, for better or worse. I
guess the good news is that it seems hard to go wrong with either of
them. I was shopping in a mid trim for both, and looking to pay around
$26k before taxes. The Toyota dealer I'm working with has been
AMAZING in the sales process and let me take a brand new one home
overnight to see how we liked it, so I have had the opportunity to put
about 70 miles on the vehicle and get a very good feel for it. The
Honda I haven't spent as much time behind the wheel with but have
taken on a side street test drive after much time in the Sienna.

For specs/details specific to the trims I'm shopping, look here
http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USB80TOV111B0,USB80HOV011B0


Toyota Sienna LE 7 passenger $25,741+ttl (assuming incentive financing)
w/ options QF AL TO RL FE
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+ 4 year 0% financing currently available
+ engine power - actually chirped tires by mistake on an onramp
passing a truck 22 more hp than Honda.
+ 3 more MPG than the Odyssey EX
+ reliability "above average" by CR verus "average" for Odyssey
+ Interior feels more refined. Dash/instrumentation looks much cooler
+ feels a bit more spacious, much more cargo room than Odyssey with all
seats occupied, third row seat visually felt wider (and sure enough,
specs show 3" more hip width in third row)
+ comes with Home link and integrated compass in the QF extra value
package 2 that most dealer vehicles are delivered with.
+ This is silly, but ... you know when you have a gallon of milk in a
grocery bag, or Chinese take out, and you put it on the floor of the
passenger seat.... and you need the bag handles to be held up so the
upper entre don't slide off or fall on their side and leak
everywhere? Toyota thought of this and has a retractable little
hook just to the left of the passenger seat just below kneecap
level. Brilliant!
+ Timing chain, not belt. As someone who lost a timing belt on an 86
Civic years ago, and most recently had 9 months of drama and over a
thousand bucks chasing down a subtle performance problem on my 2001
Subaru that got traced back to an issue with the installation of the
2nd timing belt the thing has been scheduled for... I'm likin the
idea of not having a fuggin timing belt!
? Very cushy touring ride,
? Very cushy easy steering w/ less feedback. These are plusses for
the wife, - for me.
- to get 8 passengers you need to select an 8 passenger model in which
you don't have captains chairs/arms in the 2nd row at all even if
you get rid of the middle seat (which you'd have to remove from the
vehicle, not just fold down and out of the way)
- choosing options packages FAR more confusing than Honda's approach,
but as it turns out, the mostly build an options mix that's rather
EX like in the Sienna LE so picking options is easier in dealer
stock than on paper.
- The stock stereo seems to have annoyingly boomy bass that the bass
control doesn't seem to trim out.
- Driver Front Side crash rating is 4 star verus Honda's 5star. Rear
dynamic crash rating is poor vs Honda Good. All other crash ratings
are similar.
- Apart from the usual too boring, or "too dark and will fade and show
salt badly in winter" colors, the blue Toyota has this year is not
as rich or eye catching as Honda's Ocean Mist Blue.

Honda Odyssey EX $25,399+ttl (invoice-1500, assumes incentive financing)
---------------------------------------------------------
+ Brilliant 2nd row seat layout. The Honda mini 8th seat is just a
fabulous design. It gives you an 8th passenger option (albeit for a
narrow- assed friend) when you need it, but keeps your 2nd row main
seats with captain's chair arms.
+ quite a bit less body roll on turns than Sienna
+ the integrated-into the door pull up rear sunshades are very slick
+ crash rating 5 star for driver, good for rear collisions. Toyota 4
star/poor.
+ As a fan of the blues in these two vans, the Ocean Mist Blue Honda
has is quite sharp versus Toyota's lighter blue.
+ 1500 cash back w/ financing, or 2500 cash back without
- 0.9% 3 year, or 1.9% 4-year financing are both much more costly than
Toyota's 0% 4 year!
- engine and gearing while extremely capable is noticeably less manly
than Sienna off the line and in the passing lane
- brakes on the new unit I test drove felt squishier than Toyota
- slightly lower fuel economy than the Sienna, as the EX trim doesn't get
cylinder management (you'd need to buy leather EX-L to get there)
? steering responsiveness/feedback is much more crisp, requires a bit
more effort. Wife doesn't like this, I prefer it. Makes it feel
nearly sporty, actually.
? tighter feeling suspension
- expected reliability just average per Consumer Reports, yet every
Odyssey owner I know seems to report they've had no problems.
- No compass at this trim level. This would annoy the shit out of
engineer me.
- It's a Honda, and my 1986 Civic experience was--albeit for no fault
of Honda's (2nd owner of vehicle and one careless repair guy
conspired to make it a bit sucktacular)--far from the trouble free
Honda experience other Civic owners had enjoyed, and I'm still not
entirely over it.

So, the verdict for me, with current incentives: Toyota Sienna. The
superior reliability rating is very influential for me as someone who
keeps cars a long time, their current "free money for 4 years"
financing sounds great to me especialy when the stock market is
currently in a historic shitter, the treatment we've received at this
Toyota dealer has been unbefrigginlievable, and this dealer's support
of a charitable cause near and dear to our hearts (and is related to
their willingness to do overnight test drive for us) has garnered huge
good will and karma for us as a bonus to the issues above.

Comments welcome--hope this roundup is useful for others. They both
are great minivans, and I just wish I could put the suspension,
steering, and 2nd row seat layout of the Honda into the Sienna!

Best Regards,

 

As a convert to Toyotas I will agree that you have made a good
decision. The Honda minivans are fine vehicles and actually I even
prefer their looks but there are more things about Toyotas in general
that appeal to me.

About 3-4 years ago we rented a new Toyota minivan to take to the Outer
Banks for a week. It was the second generation Sienna design. We were
very impressed with the vehicle in general and made lots of jokes about
the ten or so cupholders we found in it. The ride, power, quietness,
thoughtful ergonomic details, quality of interior controls, etc. made
an impression upon us.

Up until that point neither one of us wanted a minivan but now we were
hooked. Upon return from vacation I started shopping for a previous
design model and ended up getting a 2000 Sienna, this is after test
driving the neighbor's new Honda Odyssey. Since discovering Toyotas
about fifteen years ago I haven't been able to ignore the sense of
isolation from road/wind/engine noise and quality of interior features.
Unfortunately my 1997 Camry appears to have skimped on some of those
things yet it is still a quality vehicle below the shortcomings.

 

Sounds like you made a decision, Todd..... When we faced the same
choice 18 months ago, the deals were essentially the same, although
Honda had a slightly better lease deal (which was our primary choice,
although stupid in retrospect). The difference in the cars for me was
that my wife and I both felt the Odyssey was a better handler - a bit
tighter with the steering and suspension and the transmission was a
little more crisp-shifting. My other car is an Audi A4, and the
Odyssey felt more like a minivan that Audi might make, versus the
Toyota feeling a little more Lexus-like.

Dan D
'07 Ody EX
Central NJ USA

 

Agreed. The Odyssey definitely gets the "handles better" award!

 

We have an '07 Odyssey. At the time when we were shopping, the Honda could
be had in 8 passenger in leather. The Toyota was only available in 7
passenger when you got leather. All other factors about the vehicles made
them equal in our eyes. The final vote came down to if 1 could be had in 8
passenger, that's the one (my wife's logic, as 6 or 7 passenger was enough
in my mind seeing as we only have 2 kids. I was ready to get her an MB R350
which is only 6 passenger).

 

Buying either is a mistake considering current gas prices. I would hold on
to what you have until an equivalent hybrid is available at a reasonable
price.

 

What do you consider a reasonable price? In my opinion there is no
hybrid that is priced reasonably, yet. Plus, it is only intermediate
technology.

The Sienna gets 25-28 MPG. If he needs a larger vehicle, the Sienna is
an excellent choice. Excellent ride, good gas milage, reliable.



--

 

This is hard for me to believe.

 

Hard for the EPA to believe, too... ;-)

18/23 City/Hwy

 

It may get that on a long trip, but for day-to-day driving...

From Consumer guide Automotive

Forget the EPA. Consumer Guide's auto editors drove 150,000 miles
last year. We drove to work, to day care, to the grocery store, and on
vacation. We drove through record heat, blinding snow, driving rain,
and confounding road construction, keeping track of every drop of fuel
we used along the way.

The EPA admits its fuel economy numbers are estimates. Our numbers are
real. A typical Consumer Guide test car is evaluated by at least four
editors, all of whom account for their individual fuel usage. Here are
the vehicles in each class that used the least amount of fuel while in
our care.

Honda Odyssey-16.4 MPG

Toyota Sienna-16.4 MPG

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2008-fuel-economy-champions.htm

Consumer Reports faired a little better with 19 MPG.

As one poster noted about the Odyssey

"my normal gas mileage is 17 mpg in the city and 24.5-25 mpg on the
highway. I've gotten as low as 15 mpg in the winter here (10% ethanol
fuel) and as high as 27.1 mpg on the highway (traveling by myself with
just two suitcases). I keep my tires at 37 psi, which is what made my
gas mileage increase by 1-2 mpg."

Another noted about his Sienna " I drive 80MPH and still get 24 MPG"
which I will dismiss as total BS.

 

Hi Art,

While that sounds great in theory a) the efficiency of a hybrid
minivan is unlikely to be Prius like and probably lackluster enough
and involve enough maintenance costs to offset those gains given my
low yearly mileage for this car, and b) my driving patterns don't
involve high mileage by a long shot, except on weekend trips involving
the highway where I'm taking 5-7 people places routinely. Which, with
what I've got (something that tops out itself at 28mpg hwy, 18mpg
city) involves taking 2 vehicles instead of one.

Factoring that in, the minivan form factor actually becomes the less
thirsty option versus 2 vehicles.

 

A local Toyota dealer has said that he expects a hybrid minivan from
Toyota in the 2010 model year. If it will have the Highlander drive
train, it should be excellent choice.

Mazda makes a small minivan that gets good gas milage.

 

I own one. Trip mileage of course, no kidding I really do get that kind
of gas mileage. City driving is less depending on how much of a lead
foot I am, but I usually try to drive like I have an egg under the gas
pedal. BTW, a friend has a 08 Ody which gets even better gas milage.
On a trip, it runs on 3 cylinders. I don't know how they do it. The
gas mileage is average in city however. It is hard to believe for a
4000 lb plus vehicle to get that kind of economy, but it is so.
--

 

I tell truth. I don't care what EPA says. I've had vehicles where the
EPA says I should get 16/19 and I got much worse.
--

 

Again, those numbers are way off from what I get and what my friends Ody
gets.

--

 

I can see it doing that well on a trip if you're using super unleaded
gasoline.

 

Over the course of a recent road trip from Houston to Colorado and New
Mexico and back (almost 3,000 miles total), our 2001 Odyssey averaged nearly
24.7 mpg on mostly regular gas. Much of the highway driving was on
interstates, going about 70 with the AC on; there was also some driving at
slightly slower speeds on smaller highways. A fair amount of the total was
going up and down mountains, and there was some city driving as well.

Not at all bad for a vehicle of this size and comfort level, under these
conditions. Probably twice the mileage my dad used to get in our station
wagons on similar trips back in the '70s.

Around town (mix of street and freeway driving), I typically get between 15
and 19 mpg. In a total of about 75,000 miles, I've averaged about 19.4
overall.

 

Horsefeathers. The grade of gasoline has NOTHING to do with how much
mileage you get.

 

On interstate driving it seems to for me.

 

Yes that is trip mileage, with a steady foot and at speed limit. No 80
mph for me. The Sienna AWD gets quite a bit less mileage, but you have
a heavier vehicle plus 4 wheels driving. I have the 2WD model, it's
been a great vehicle, perhaps the best I've owned yet. One more note, I
don't use the built in MPG gauge, I just use the old arithmetic version,
and at least three checks then average. I'm also very careful at the
pump when topping off the tank.
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