2003 CRV Fires

My CRV exploded into flames at 8k. From engine compartment. Saw some
early threads on this. Has this happened to anyone?

 

Yes it has. Do a google search.

 

Exhaust always the culprit. They need to get rid of this part.

Today, most exhausts come with heat shields. If I'm correct the CRV doesn't
have one. And what's this plastic cover and fuel injectors doing almost on
top of the exhaust. With 45 psi and a bad o-ring...See here:
http://tinyurl.com/xt2h

The plastic cover is not a heat shield, has no useful function to a
mechanic. And note (second pic) that with no plastic shield any liquid
fire can be stopped with wet rag, etc., from experience. Also note that the
shield covers only the upper part of the exhaust that doesn't get as hot.
Sheild, with fire resistant material, should cover the midsection of the
exhaust pipe and leave all component accessible.

Every time there's an engine fire, I always open the hood just to see where
it started. Just can't sleep well not knowing where. Don't do this or risk
getting brows burnt off. The key here is to never close the hood then start
the car after repairs, oil change, etc. When I was a boy, I've three engine
fires, so I develop this idea:

Start it
Observe it
Shut it

Note: SOS, is a term also used when there's a fire and your clueless and
hungry.
Indi

You're referring to this one
http://tinyurl.com/xt5r
or this one.
http://tinyurl.com/xt5w
And one other

 

YES! This happened to our neighbor's new CRV this past summer. We feel
bad because we have one and have been happy with it, so we recommended
it to her. She only had it a few months when she took it in for it's
first service and, interestingly enough, a recall. Less than 10
minutes after picking it up, while she was sitting in traffic the
thing caught on fire (started under the hood). She pulled into a
parking lot and called 911, but it was too late. The really amazing
thing is that neither Honda America or the dealer are taking any sort
of responsibility. She and her husband spent their entire summer
writing letters and making phone calls (while driving a rental car),
with no luck. The car was totaled and her insurance had to cover it.
This was a BRAND NEW CAR that the dealer had just serviced. I am still
baffled by the fact that Honda and the dealership are leaving her
holding the bag. At this point, we are seriously considering selling
our CRV, partly because of concerns that the same thing might happen
to us, and partly because we don't feel too good about Honda's lack of
ownership. I think this is a problem that really needs looking into.

 

I had a similar thing happen to my 4 month old Porsche many years ago.
Serviced by the dealer, then caught fire in the engine compartment about
100 miles later (in Conn.). I contacted my insurance company, who was
completely unconcerned, e.g., "a gas line could have rubbed thru", etc.
I had it repaired, but the car was never the same afterward. Neither
Porsche of America or the dealer took any responsibility for the fire.

 

Uhhh, that's not the exhaust pipes you're looking at it's the (also
plastic) inlet manifold. This is a K-Series engine - the exhaust is on the
back of the engine!

I have to agree with you on the desirability of the plastic covers though.
Yet every car mfr now uses them - I guess they want to hide the "works"
form the owner. Me?... I want to see the "works".

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

Seems a strange coincidence that the car was "serviced" earlier in the day and caught fire after the
"service" was performed. With no more info than what you have given: I suspect the engine oil and oil
filter was changed, during the service. And, the original oil filter gasket was not removed, that is it was
still stuck to the block. The oil change Tech, installed the new filter and gasket, and... well there you
go. I'd say your friend has a beef with the servicing dealer, not American Honda. But, reading your post,
it sounds like you've already made up your mind, so I won't belabor the point.

As for your chicken little-knee jerk reaction to sell your CR-v. What are you waiting for?

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It isn't the oil change. These are not the only two....And they are
all on the same type of vehicle

 

So what is it and why don't you get NHTSA (and the insurance companies
paying off on the charred hulks) interested if it's such a clear defect that
happens to so many 2nd gen CR-Vs??? I find it really hard to believe that
any insurance company would eat more than one or two of these before going
after Honda to subrogate their losses. A Usenet newsgroup is no place to get
an issue like this worked if it's real.

I just looked on NHTSA's database and found no fires in 53 model year 2003
CR-V or CRV reports and none in 109 model year 2002 CR-V or CRV reports.

 

I even pulled down the raw database and searched the text--previously I was
looking at the Fire field in the online reports--there are three fires
described in the text, one of them very recent that may be the incident that
sparked, so to speak, this thread:

435480 10042645 AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO., INC. HONDA CR-V 2003 N Y POWER
TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION:LEVER AND LINKAGE:COLUMN SHIFT NEW BOSTON NH
SHSRD78893U140822 10/9/2003 10/9/2003 5360 1 AFTER HAVING THE SHIFT CABLE
LINKAGE CORROSION RECALL REPAIRS PERFORMED, WHILE DRIVING AT 30/35 MPH,
VEHICLE CAUGHT ON FIRE FROM UNDER THE WINDSHIELD. THE CAUSE OF THE FIRE
WAS UNDETERMINED. *AK

445299 10045221 AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO., INC. HONDA CRV 2003 N 10/6/2003 Y
ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE READING MA SHSRD78853U128392 10/31/2003
10/31/2003 8200 1 6 DAYS AFTER HAVING THROTTLE CABLE RECALL AND A/T SHIFT
CABLE RECALL AND O/C, CAR BURST INTO FLAMES (TOTALED) WHILE DRIVING 20-25
MPH. HONDA SAYS NOT DEFECT? CAR HAD 8200 MILES ON ODOMETER. NO EVIDENCE THAT
OIL FROM O/C CAUSED FIRE. HONDA INVESTIGATIONS HAS NO ANSWER. FIRE STARTED
OR WAS FIRST EVIDENT IN DRIVERS WHEEL WELL AREA. *LA

453940 10051179 AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO., INC. HONDA CR-V 2003 N 12/17/2003
Y 0 0 ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING NORTH YARMOUTH ME SHSRD78853U133110
12/27/2003 12/27/2003 10150 1 I BROUGHT MY 2003 HONDA CR-V EX MODEL IN TO
MAINE MALL HONDA IN SOUTH PORTLAND, MAINE FOR ROUTINE 10,000 MILE SCHEDULED
MAINTENANCE, WHICH INCLUDES CHANGING THE OIL, ROTATING TIRES AND INSPECTING
FLUID LEVELS. WITHIN 5 MILES OF LEAVING THE DEALERS LOCATION, THE ENGINE
CAUGHT FIRE AND THE CAR WAS A TOTAL LOSS. I FIRST NOTICED SMOLE BY LOOKING
IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR APPROXIAMTELY 2 MILES AFTER LEAVING THE DEALERS
LOCATION. THINKING IT WAS JUST SOME SPILLED OIL, I KEPT ON DRIVING UNTIL I
NOTICED THE LOW OIL LIGHT COME ON THE DASHBOARD. I PULLED THE CAR OVER AND
SMELLED OIL. AT THAT POINT I OPENED THE HOOD OF THE CAR AND SAW FLAMES IN
THE ENGINE. THE MAINE STATE POLICE ARRIVED WITHIN 5 MINUTES AND DETERMINED
THAT THE FIRE WAS TOO FAR PROGREESED TO SAVE THE CAR. THE SOUTH PORTLAND
AND SCARBOROUGH MAINE FIRE DEPARTMENTS ARRIVED WITHIN 10 MINUTES TO PUT OUT
THE FIRE.*AK

By comparison, Jeep Liberty finds 1 and Ford Escape finds 9, one of which is
post-collision.

 

3 fires are alot in one year, especailly if it is yours that went on
fire....The reason I am posting is the hope others see it here. I do
not know what it takes (how many) to get NJTSA to investogate

 

People, you need to report your fires to the NHTSA! I wrote a report on our
Odyssey's ignition switch failure (loss of power while driving, yet dash
warning lights remained off) and how it could have killed us all if I hadn't
noticed and had to meanuver in traffic... and not long afterwards there was
a recall on this switch.

 

Whether all of the fires are in a year or not and whether one of the fires
was in your vehicle does not make them a "lot" of fires. The only thing that
makes them a "lot" of fires is the number of fires per vehicle-unit of
time/mileage driven; a normalized **rate** about which you provide no
information. When this number starts indicating a statistically significant
propensity of fires in CR-Vs vs. any other vehicle, then they'll probably
get interested. They probably won't get interested because one person who
had it happen tries to go on the Internet and make it sound more likely than
it may in fact be.

What did your insurance company say? Did they just say "what the heck? it's
just 20 grand?" Or did they try to subrogate their losses with Honda and/or
the dealer? Clearly somebody is liable for this--cars are supposed to be
designed to not just catch fire. Or did they say you should have seen that
check engine/oil pressure light for at least one of the ten minutes it was
on before the thing went up in smoke?

 

I would agree that three fires per se does not mean there is a
problem. They could be totally unrelated events. However, the fact
that all three reported the occurrence shortly after servicing is
curious. The fact that two of them were after a recall service on the
transmission linkage is even more suspicious.

My guess is that some combination of design or installation error is
causing transmission fluid to leak onto the exhaust system.

 

3 fires have been reported to the NHTSA. One has not. Also, it is
highly probable there is a least two others. Won't get into details
here, but all 4 fires happened instantaneously. In my case, I have
retraced where I first saw the problem to when the flames started. It
was 12 seconds. Never even pulled over. Just dove out of the car. All
the other 4 fires were ecxactly the same. 4 fires (and maybe six) is
ALOT. 5 of the vehicles were driven less than 10000 miles (3 less than
5k). Honda denied warranty claims on all these, with no explanation.
There is a pattern, believe me. As you say, cars are designed not to
do this. Since Honda is mum on other cases, I am trying to find
them...and I have. Originally I thought it was a fluke. Now I know
there are others.
Also, you do not expect a brand new car to jsut do this suddenly and
without warning, so not reacting swiftly should not be the person's
fault. An old crap car, maybe, but not a car with 5k that just left
the dealer. Investigations are continuing on our and the insurers
side, but when the car is melted it is tough. You say "Clearly someone
is liable for this". No argument there...If it wasn't me, then
wouldn't you think Honda would take liability. Probably not because
now that there are severla they are looking at a major problem with
potetial huge liabilities. Can you imagine if someone gets hurt under
these same circumstances. A good lawyer will see these other case and
sue...for a lot.

 

You still haven't made the case that n fires is a **lot** of fires (i.e.,
statistically significant) and, without offering some underlying
explanation, you certainly don't make the case for a pattern. Something that
is unlikely to happen can happen ten times in a row. These are called
independent trials.

If it wasn't you, would I think Honda would voluntarily claim liability?
Seriously, you must be joking.

Twelve seconds from **when you first saw flames** proves nothing.

If the case is as clear as you wish it to be, then you should have no
problem finding some lawyer to take on Honda on a contingency fee basis. I'm
betting it isn't as clear as you wish it to be.

 

Let me give you some more data points:

The AHM sales press release for November indicates that, through November,
they'd sold 132,575 CR-Vs in 2003 vs. 133,979 in 2002. So, let's assume that
both Decembers sold at the November, 2003, rate of roughly 10,000 vehicles.
By my math, that puts the number of 2ndGen CR-Vs out there in the >300,000
units range. (I don't recall exactly what month in 2002 the 2ndGen was
introduced.) Let's assume that the average one of these vehicles now has one
year of use. (Obviously some are almost two and some almost zero.) You cite
7 fires. That's 7 fires in 300,000 vehicle years of operation or a fire rate
of 2.3 vehicles per 100,000 per year.

The Pontiac Fiero was recalled for its propensity to catch fire and had a
fire rate off-scale. To wit:

"By the middle of 1987, the fire count for 1984 Fieros hit a rate of about
20 blazes a month. Fieros were blowing up at a rate of one for every 508
cars sold."

The source of this is an autoweek article captured at
http://www.fiero.org/text/autoweek.txt.

In life, more or less random s*** tends to happen. Since cars involve lots
of stored energy, lots of energy and heat release, and lots of flammable
stuff, some random s*** happening with cars includes a few toasted hulks.
Just because it happens to you does not automatically move it from the
category of s*** happening to one root cause defect that afflicts all 2ndGen
CR-Vs.

 

We'll agree to disagree on this. Don't be so sure about the lawyers
not taking Honda on....Of course, because the cars have been new and
thankfully no one is hurt, the losses have been to the insurance
company. Honda has an obligation to figure this out before someone
gets hurt. If it is nothing, then its nothing -no problem, but Honda
has not done anything on this. I am just trying t get to the bottom of
it all. These are brand new cars, an they aren't made by GM

Your figures may be right but your conclusion is wrong. First, ALL the
fires have been 03's, so we are down to 100K, plus or minus (never
said it affected all 2nd Gens). Second, all the ones I can verify have
been made in one of two plants, so we are POSSIBLY down to maybe half
that. finding a patter is Honda's job, not mine. I think 6 cars is a
lot, especially where the instances has been identical. And don't
forget there are still plenty of 03's being sold. In fact, 4 of the
fires have happened since September. And Honda completely avoiding any
warranty claims (or any goodwill) makes me suspicios. Assuming it was
not my fault, what do you think a good reason would be for Honda not
doing anything on this, especially where the insurance companies are
going after them. Don't they want to make their customers happy?

About the fiero...exterme example. Plenty of people had firstone tires
that never gave them a problem. In fact, I think the problem was
traced to one plant...

Do you sell Hondas?

 

No, I don't sell Hondas. I engineer non-automotive things. (Aerospace
simulation and control systems, if you must. And you?) I also own a 2000
CR-V and a 1992 Acura Vigor and have a 2004 Acura TL on order.

I said that if there was some "there" there the lawyers and insurance
companies would take Honda on. I still consider that true. But assertions
that there are "lots" of CR-V fires in this NG isn't going to put the
"there" there.

You say Honda has done nothing on this. How do you know? What makes you
think they'd tell you what they were doing to understand this issue?

You say "If it is nothing, then [it's] nothing" but have been steadily
asserting a position that it is not nothing. This is the first post where
you begin to provide some "facts" that might indicate a statistically
significant pattern rather than just disparaging asserting there are "lots"
of CR-Vs burning down with no data to back up that assertion.

If you believe that "finding a patter[n] is Honda's job, not" yours, then
why are you posting this here?

Honda knows everything that's different between 02s and 03s. This could be
significant or it could be random.

Possibly. Or possibly just dumb luck.

"Identical"? Similar, maybe. Two of the NHTSA reports were **very closely**
located geographically. Maybe this is a stronger "pattern"? Maybe there's a
CR-V arsonist loose in the northeast? Maybe they were serviced by the same
dealer? Maybe there's a tech there who just doesn't like CR-V owners and
leaves the oil out and bypasses the oil pressure warning switch? Who knows?

And you still are using the word "a lot" with zero data to back that up. I
read "a lot" as "statistically disproportionate to the experience of other
similar vehicles." You provide, still, ZERO data to make this case.

Here again you assert that Honda isn't doing anything about this. Don't bet
they aren't. You just don't see them doing anything. $20k worth of goodwill?
Sure, I bet they're just itching to do that. Wouldn't you be? Do they want
to make their customers happy? Sure, and by all indications, they are doing
a great job on the whole across their entire customer base. Do they want to
spend $20k to make one customer happy? Obviously not. Since these
"identical" fires all happening shortly after service, where are the
servicing dealers in this whole equation? Are they just shallower pockets
and tougher to go after?

You might want to read up on the statistics of small numbers to understand
"lots" and "pattern" and on the Audi 100/Unintended Acceleration debacle to
understand why auto manufacturers view these kind of issues and owner
crusades with jaundiced eyes and on numerous other safety issues like Pinto
gas tank fires to understand how the corporate mind has occasionally viewed
stuff like this. I'm not saying Honda is trying to hide anything or similar,
just that there are reasons that their first reaction is not to graciously
volunteer liability whether they are liable or not.

That having been said, there may well be a defect in design/manufacture that
makes some set of 2ndGen CR-Vs disproportionately likely to go up in smoke.
Good luck in your crusade to prove it.

 

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:50:08 GMT, "Dick Watson"

I think that's pretty obvious - this is a public international forum where
people can share common experiences.

I thought the U.S. market models were made in only two plants: Swindon U.K.
and one in Japan.

It seems reasonable to me that Honda would want to buy back those vehicle
carcasses for post mortem - in fact if I try to put myself in the position
of a Honda engineer, I think I'd be champing at the bit to get my hands on
one of those for forensic analysis of the cause of the fire. Possibly this
is something which happens anyway, through collaboration with the insurance
company. If so that appears to me like a PR blunder... to cut the customer
out of the loop.

In any case, if Honda doesn't do anything, someone else will: 60mins, 20/20
or some other sensationalist media hacks. If they let it get that far,
we've already seen the results - enough to get the bureaucrats off their
duffs and then the thing gets blown out of proportion.

I think there's a significant difference between liability and
responsibility for investigating the cause. Obviously something is being
done wrong somewhere by someone. If Honda doesn't want to be the first to
determine that "mistake" it seems myopic, even foolish, given the potential
fallout.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??