1994 Honda Accord LX stalls

I bought a used honda this week which stalls almost once a day which
didnt happen for the 20+ miles I test drove it. Although the problem
cannot be reproduced consistently, it has happened during braking at
signals, peak hour traffic. Before I forget, I know next to nothing
about automobiles and all the comments below are from mechanics who
have worked on the car.

The used car inspection listed the following issues
1. small leaks in exhaust, oil pan and left axle
2. rough/low idle
3. distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires (this was listed as OK
for the next few months)

I had the exhaust and left axle leaks fixed as they were the major
issues. A quick note here, the exhaust leak used to cause the engine to
make a whirring sound at 2500rpm. The mechanic checked this out and
told me that some fool had messed around with the catalytic converter
heat shielding and had cut into the converter. The mechanic welded this
back and the whirring sound did stop. This is fine now i.e. no whirring
sound.

The rest of the issues I postponed until the next servicing. And after
it stalled once, I took it to a different mechanic where he replaced
the battery wires and test drove it before declaring it fine. He did
say something about the battery, alternator and stall all being linked,
although it didnt make much sense.

I now plan to change the distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires
(Hopefully this should fix the problem!!!). Coming to my questions now

1. The oil pan leak was said to be "very light around the oil pan
gasket", and the mechanic assured me it should be fine till the next
servicing. How serious is this issue and could this be the reason
behind the stall?
2. While I am getting the distributor cap & rotor, spark plug & wires
changed is there anything else that may need to be replaced(A fuel
filter/air filter or the likes)??
3. Any other inputs for stalling issue? I have seen discussions about
main relays, igniters and th likes.
4. The battery load test and alternator specs were fine. Can this still
be an alternator issue as mentioned by the mechanic??

I would greatly appreciate your inputs on this and more than ready to
provide you with any information I may have missed here that you would
be interested in.

Thanks

 

wrote in

Unless it's something I've never heard of, it's unlikely to be the
alternator.

Stalling is a typical Honda problem with common causes:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling

 

---------------------------

The only thing we don't know about your new car is the mileage. You may
not have to change the spark plug wires. They seem to last forever. The
oil pan leak is often no worry either. Since the vehicle is new-to-you,
you should probably run a can of injector cleaner thru it, OR a couple
tanks of Gasohol, to clean out any sludge or water in the fuel system.
This may well cure the stalling. Read the owner's manual and look thru
the previous service records to get an understanding of what should be
done. If it was serviced at a Honda dealer (we don't know what country
you're in), they are very helpful and might give you reprints of recent
work orders. Again, depending on the mileage, the tranny fluid might
need to be changed, and the Timing Belt might be overdue.

Tell us more.....

'Curly'

 

I disagree with the "just about forever" statement. They do eventually
begin leaking voltage, especially in the wet. My approach is that if
they're more than 7 years old, replace them.

Heh, water might do it. It would pass through the fuel filter and to the
injectors, which means there may be corrosion in the injectors or fuel
lines after the filter.

A Motorvac Carbon Clean service would be an excellent idea, if for no other
reason than to make certain the system is 100% after the fuel filter.

A failing EGR another possibility? Terry has seen trouble with low-speed
running due to an EGR sticking open.

Bad thermostat can confuse the ECU, causing stalling.

He appears to be in Minnesota.

 

The mileage on the honda is 109k and the car is in MN, USA. The
transmission fuild and the timing belt have been changed by the
previous owner.

Another development since the post, it stalled when it was idling in
the garage this morning (I usually let the car warm up for a couple of
minutes before driving) but didnt stall while running (7 mile journey)

 

wrote in

What speed was the engine turning when it was warming up?

If cold, it should have flared to about 1,500-1,700rpm on a start, then
settled to about 1,300-1,500rpm, then dropped steadily as the car warmed
up, until it hit 700rpm or so.

Does it idle at a constant speed or does the idle cycle up and down a few
hundred revs?

What sort of throttle response do you get when you gas it? Any hesitation?

Does it drive better when warm or cold?

Does the temperature gauge get up to the half-way mark within 5-7 minutes
or so?

How is your heater output when full-warm?

Is it an automatic or a manual?

Need to know more here.

 

What speed was the engine turning when it was warming up?

We have an un-insulated garage. So, yes, the temperature and the car
was cold (Its around 32F here). I usually open the garage and car door
and let the car idle while I am inside. So, didnt see how the
tachometer varied today morning, but the rpm rates are pretty close to
what you have written the other times that I have been in the car when
its idling (1500-1700 on start, 1300-1500 settle and slowly - over a
couple minutes - to 700-800)

Idles at a constant gradual speed

Nope. No hesitation

I presume you are talking about the engine temperatures. I would say
the engine was just warming up when these stalls have happened. The
stalls have happened after idling (a couple of minutes) and within 5
miles of starting off. If it is the local weather temperatures - its
been around 32F.

Havent checked this. Too busy concentrating on the tachometer . Will
do it from now on.

The heater is awesome. It heats up the car real fast (We used to have a
1999 Camry and the heater on the Honda is better than the one on Camry)

 

Some more updates based on a 5 miles drive I had just now.

1. This happened 4 miles after I started off and the car stalled even
when I was not braking. (So things have changed today, car stalled
during idling and while running at 50mph)

2. The "check engine" lights came on. I pulled over, restarted the car
(as per instructions in the manual), the "check engine" lights no
longer came on and it ran without problems from there.

Also, I was browsing through some other posts and saw a post mention
something called the PCV valve. Could this be a problem?

 

wrote in

A blocked PCV valve will not cause stalling. It will cause oil to be pumped
into the intake manifold through the crankcase breather, and eventually
past the engine seals, causing leaks onto your driveway.


We need that error code from the Check Engine light:
Directly beneath the glove box there is a 2-prong connector clipped to a
holder (might be blue). Short the two pins with a bent paper clip, then
count the blinks of the Check Engine light. There may be long and short
blinks, and the sequence will repeat. Report that back here. It could give
us a clue.


Aaaaand, more questions:

1) So the car stalls both when you are idling at a light AND while you are
cruising at a fixed speed?

2) Does it stall when **FULLY WARMED UP**? (That means driving it for AT
LEAST 15 or 20 minutes.

3) When it dies, does it appear to be having trouble (shaking, sputtering,
etc) or does it just die out of the blue?

4) When it stalls at idle, do the revs appear to jump up and down, or are
they rock steady right up to the point when the engine dies?

5) When it stalls at speed, does the car seem to sputter or shake bfore it
dies, or does it just cut out?

6) Does it always restart on the first turn of the key, or does it require
extensive cranking before it fires up?

7)

 

A blocked PCV valve will not cause stalling. It will cause oil to be
pumped

Will give this a shot and report back when I have the results

I guess I must have confused you, so let me rephrase
Stall when braking to stop - around 5 times (over the last 2 weeks)
Stall when idling in garage - 1 time (today morning)
Stall when cruising on the highway - 1 time (today afternoon)

I think I have driven the car for longer than 15-20 mins only 3 times
until now. And it has NOT stalled on any of these rides.

It dies out of the blue

As mentioned earlier, this has happened only once (today morning) and I
wasnt in the car when this happened. So, I dont really know.

It just cuts out.

Usually it is extensive cranking. (NOTE: It was extensive until I
re-read the manual and found recommended technique to restart when
"Check Engine" lights came on. Using the technique suggested in the
manual, I can get it to restart in a turn or two)

 

The code is -

One long blink followed by 5 short blinks

which i prsume is Error code - 15 ? Now, what does that mean in plain
English !!!

 

so, what happened to the used car warranty? Was it bought as-is?
I was thinking that you should return to the dealer and demand an
exchange for the grief it has caused you.

I had the same experience when my 94 DX went over the 100,000 miles.
Except that it wouldn't start back up, which is different from your
situation.

The mechanic replaced the entire distributor. It works great now.

 

wrote in

It means a defective EACV (idle air control valve).

That makes sense, too, with your stalling when warming up.

Have somebody remove and clean it, then _correctly_ reset the idle speed.

Unfortunately, there are a number of things that control the idle and each
needs to be checked for correct functioning. The EACV is a good place to
start.

If you unplug the EACV's electrical connector, does the car still idle?

 

A quick question before I get the EACV cleaned up - Are EACV and
Igniton output related??

The reason I ask this is according to
http://autorepair.about.com/library/ts/obd-i/bl-dtcs-58a.htm the error
that we got i.e. error 15 means

15 Ignition Output Signal.

 

wrote in

Not at all.

You're right. 15 is Ignition Out signal. Sorry about that.

I was going by this:
http://tech.hybridgarage.com/tech/codes.html
and I got confused by the fact that the description is *UNDER* the relevant
code. Oops!

Sounds like you may have a broken wire or a bad igniter.

There is a check procedure. This one is for the Integra, but it may be
similar to your car:
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/dtc-15-ign-out-sig-1.jpg
http://tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/dtc-15-ign-out-sig-2.jpg
(Note: The mention of "CODE 10" on the first page is a typo in the factory
manual.)

Sorry for the EACV error.

 

Thanks for all your help Tegger

One last question thats still on my mind is - Can a bad wire/igniter
explain all the symptoms that my car has had (I mean can it stall the
car when it is idling, stopping or cruising)??

I will run through the flow chart sometime this weekend and report my
findings and (hopefully!!!) the problem will be fixed *fingers crossed*

 

wrote in

A bad wire/igniter can cause at least some of this, yes. However...


The problem is, because of the car's age, the issues it had when you bought
it, and the strong possibility of other problems, you need to have a
mechanic familiar with Hondas check this thing out thoroughly.

It had a rough/low idle. It had a split CV joint boot. The distributor cap,
rotor and wires are suspect. All these things suggest neglect. There may be
other things wrong as well.

Was that "low/rough idle" ever fixed? If so, what fixed it?

Is the PCV system pumping oil into the intake? Is the throttle body clean
or gummed up? Is the EACV fouled with the same goop?

Is there rust and corrosion in the engine compartment? Has the car ever
been in a collision that might have pinched, abraded or severed electrical
wires? Are any wires breaking at the point where they join their crimp
connector? Are the connectors on firmly, and not corroded or broken? Any
corrosion in the fuse boxes?

Are there any aftermarket <gag> modifications that might have been less-
than-expertly done? Alarm, remote starter, stereo, power antenna, that sort
of thing? You'd be amazed how many problems can arise from modified wiring
if it's not done to the highest standard. One Toyota tech told me once that
99% of the electrical problems he's seen are due to poorly-executed
modifications.

You need to go through this portion of the FAQ (see below), especially any
remote links in it. The FAQ represents the collecive wisdom and experience
of some very knowledgeable people, and addresses issues specific to Hondas.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#stalling

 

Ok, some updates. Looks like the problem has been fixed and it was a
BAD IGNITER (which has since been replaced).

I took the car to the mechanic and he diagnosed the problem was due to
the igniter. He did mention that it could also be because of the coil
or the worst case - entire distributor. Luckily it was just the igniter
but the repair shop (which happens to be with AAA and usually gives a
1yr/12,000 mile warranty on the part) did not give any warranty saying
that the coil was not replaced as per their recommendations!!!

So, I was wondering if
1. The coil (~180$ for parts+labour) should be replaced at this point
of time as it seems to be working just fine?
2. The mechanic told me that an old/weak coil could damage the igniter
(hence the "no warranty"). Is this true? (It does not seem to make
sense to me as I read that the igniter feeds the coil and not vice
versa)