1990 Civic Wagon with Periodic Starting Problem

Discussion in 'Civic' started by OS, May 14, 2004.

  1. OS

    OS Guest

    I have a 1990 Honda Civic station wagon with 226,000 miles. I have
    maintained it well (plugs, wires, coil a few years ago, distributor,
    fuel filter, etc.). It runs great and gets 31,000 mpg in town. Here
    is my problem, which has gone on periodically for several years:
    sometimes the car won't start. The engine will turn over, but won't
    catch (the check engine light does come on while it cranks). This
    usually happens during hotter weather. It gives me no problem in the
    winter, but now that the weather's warmer here (I'm in GA), the
    problem is recurring. It's especially bad when I turn off the car
    briefly (to buy gas)then try to restart it. I just have to sit there
    and wait a few minutes, try again, wait, try again, and when it's
    ready, it will start as soon as I turn the key. The car either starts
    immediately or cranks and cranks and does not start at all. Once it
    starts, it runs great. If I wait long enough, it will start (sometimes
    as long as 30 minutes). Then, the problem may not happen again for
    several days. There is no pattern. I've noticed that if I wait until
    later in the day to start my car, and the windows have not been
    lowered to help cool the inside, it will not start.

    My mechanic had it hooked up to diagnosis for half a day, turning it
    off and restarting it, but of course it functioned perfectly with
    them. They said that they could find nothing obviously wrong, and
    unless the car could produce the problem while hooked up to the
    machine, they couldn't find the cause. They said they didn't think it
    was the ignition, but I wonder. If the inside of the car is really
    hot, it seems not to start. Any suggestions for me or my mechanic will
    be greatly appreciated.

    OS
     
    OS, May 14, 2004
    #1
  2. OS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    (OS) wrote in
    Main relay!!
    http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm
     
    Jim Yanik, May 14, 2004
    #2
  3. OS

    Caroline Guest

    Agreed. Many reports of this exact problem (including the symptoms you describe
    above) occur here at the newsgroup for early 1990s Hondas. I myself had this
    problem with my 1991 Civic. I replaced the relay in 1999, 105k miles. No
    problems 47k miles and five years since.

    I'll just add that the site above and others advocate repairing the main (fuel)
    relay. But it's fine just to replace the thing altogether. The relay should cost
    you under $50 from an online site such as
    http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catdisplay.jsp . If you have
    trouble finding the part at the site, e-mail: , or
    call toll free 1.800.341.4113.

    Getting the relay out can be annoying but it's doable, even by an amateur.
     
    Caroline, May 14, 2004
    #3
  4. OS

    Kelsen Guest

    <snip>

    By my calculations, you've only used 7.29 gallons of gas in this car;
    way to go!

    --
    RFT!!!
    Dave Kelsen
    I'm going to tell you something now and I want you to listen very
    carefully: The fact of the matter is, and there's no getting around
    it... I like prefatory remarks.
     
    Kelsen, May 14, 2004
    #4
  5. OS

    Zomaar Guest

    The old main relay problem...Is it that time of the year again?

    It amazes (and really annoys) me that authorized Honda garages don't know
    about this...I had the same problem myself 4 years ago with my 89 Prelude. I
    took it to 3 garages, and none of them could fix it...this NG sorted it,
    though - thanks guys...

    Ali
     
    Zomaar, May 14, 2004
    #5
  6. OS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    I'd have the relay fixed by the time you received your new relay in the
    mail,or by the time you got back from the dealership.

    Re-soldering the relay is EASY,and you don't have to give someone $50 for
    another relay that could develop (or already have)the same problem.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2004
    #6
  7. OS

    Caroline Guest

    Considering how hard the thing is to get out of many (all?) Hondas, I am not
    confident of the second.
    Maybe you have other information, but I have not heard of this problem repeating
    once a completely new relay is installed.

    I am less confident of the problem not repeating following a re-solder job.

    Still, if you or others say you've re-soldered once and only once and never had
    a recurrence, and on many cars' main fuel relays, then of course your point is
    well-taken.
     
    Caroline, May 15, 2004
    #7
  8. OS

    OS Guest

    (OS) wrote in message
    Thank you all for your responses. I went to the website provided by
    Jim Yanik on main relays, read the symptoms, and could not believe it!
    It gave exactly the same symptoms that I'm having, except in more
    detail, including buying gas, then not being able to restart the car!
    I'm going to print it out and take it to the mechanic, along with a
    main relay (I hope they know how to solder--that's the only reason I
    won't do it myself). I'll look for one locally at Autozone or online,
    possibly. What a great newsgroup--I really did not expect any
    responses, since that has been the case with my limited newsgroup
    usage. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks again!
     
    OS, May 15, 2004
    #8
  9. OS

    tomb Guest

    Caroline wrote:
    || I'd have the relay fixed by the time you received your new relay in
    || the mail,or by the time you got back from the dealership.
    |
    | Considering how hard the thing is to get out of many (all?) Hondas,
    | I am not confident of the second.

    Taking it out/putting it back: took me about an hour and several attempts,
    ended up with somewhat scratched hands.

    Resoldering it: took me about a minute ;)

    || Re-soldering the relay is EASY,and you don't have to give someone
    || $50 for another relay that could develop (or already have)the same
    || problem.
    |
    | Maybe you have other information, but I have not heard of this
    | problem repeating once a completely new relay is installed.
    |
    | I am less confident of the problem not repeating following a
    | re-solder job.

    Soldering in an environment like a car can be iffy. There's lots of
    temperature changes, and *lots* of vibrations; both are things that solder
    joints don't like. They do tend to develop cracks, especially if you have
    large weights (like a relays on a PCB) attached to them. Resoldering, if
    done correctly, should give you the same life as the original solder joint,
    i.e., another 10 or 15 years. And if you still have the car and it breaks
    again, you know how to get it out and do it again for another 10 years ;)

    || Still, if you or others say you've re-soldered once and only once
    || and never had a recurrence, and on many cars' main fuel relays, then
    || of course your point is well-taken.

    No problems so far, but it's only been about half a year since.
     
    tomb, May 15, 2004
    #9
  10. OS

    N.E.Ohio Bob Guest

    I've had a soft spot in my head for them ole Civic Wagons since I had
    one years ago that my neighbor sold me. Wish I could find one of the
    last ones made, with fuel injection and the 5 speed, and no rust! bob
     
    N.E.Ohio Bob, May 15, 2004
    #10
  11. OS

    Caroline Guest

    snip for conciseness, but all points noted
    Well then maybe I'll give soldering a whirl if and when my car's main fuel relay
    fails again. I am as interested in saving a buck (about $38 to be exact) as the
    next person. I've got the cheap-o soldering iron (which
    http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm says is
    fine and maybe even preferred) all ready. :)

    Thanks for the report.
     
    Caroline, May 15, 2004
    #11
  12. OS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    Who solders it IN the car? I took mine inside and did it at my workbench.
    Or your solder may be more resistant to cracks than the original alloy.
    Solder used for wave-soldering is different than repair solder.Lots of bad
    solder joints during manufacture,that's why they have line techs at the end
    to fix such problems,and many still get through.

    And if you repair a 10 yr old car and then have to do it again in ANOTHER
    10 years,for a total of 20 years,so what? You still save $50.
    And it's damn good that your car lasted THAT long!
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2004
    #12
  13. OS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    (OS) wrote in
    I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd rather
    sell you a new relay;they profit from the sale and the installation.

    And they may not know how to solder either!

    But good luck,I hope this fixes your car,and I'm glad to be of some help!
     
    Jim Yanik, May 15, 2004
    #13
  14. OS

    tomb Guest

    Jim Yanik wrote:
    ||
    || Soldering in an environment like a car can be iffy.
    |
    | Who solders it IN the car? I took mine inside and did it at my
    | workbench.

    Heh... that got across the wrong way. I was trying to say that solder
    connections can be iffy in a car, because of the mentioned environmental
    factors. Usually, crimping will outlast soldering, but it's kinda hard to
    crimp things like a relay ;)

    Of course I took out the relays inside and re-soldered it there... :)
     
    tomb, May 15, 2004
    #14
  15. OS

    OS Guest

    I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd rather
    I talked to my mechanic (not a Honda dealer, just a chain--Tires
    Plus), and he knew exactly what I was talking about with the main
    relay. He does know how to solder, but I'm just going to order a new
    part (my preference), but he says it has to come from the Honda
    dealer. I'll also call the Honda automotive website on Monday that
    someone provided, because the part isn't listed on their site. I'm
    assuming that I can install a new one, but I can't find the old one.
    I've looked all under the dash. The mechanic said you can pull relays
    all day and not get the right one. I may have to let him find it.
     
    OS, May 16, 2004
    #15
  16. OS

    Caroline Guest

    Por que?

    Online parts sites sell OEM, too.

    Of course, delivery might take a week.
    Not this one. I'm an amateur, and there's only one relay (really, a "relay
    assembly") that looks anything like the picture at
    http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm .

    It is tucked up in there (on the driver's dash side, on the left, maybe a few
    inches above knee height) on some Honda models though.

    It helps to have the new one in your hand, to match up shapes and maybe, but not
    necessarily, colors.
    I was originally going to have an import shop fix mine in 1999, but they were
    busy. I asked the mechanic if maybe he could point it out to me. He graciously
    took a couple of minutes and got in there with a flashlight and did.

    Then I took the hour and acquired the scratched up knuckles wrangling the thing
    out, like Tomb wrote.
     
    Caroline, May 16, 2004
    #16
  17. OS

    tomb Guest

    Caroline wrote:
    |||| I suspect your dealer will NOT re-solder the original relay,they'd
    |||| rather sell you a new relay;they profit from the sale and the
    |||| installation.
    ||||
    |||| And they may not know how to solder either!
    ||||
    |||| But good luck,I hope this fixes your car,and I'm glad to be of
    |||| some help!
    |||
    ||| I talked to my mechanic (not a Honda dealer, just a chain--Tires
    ||| Plus), and he knew exactly what I was talking about with the main
    ||| relay. He does know how to solder, but I'm just going to order a
    ||| new
    ||| part (my preference), but he says it has to come from the Honda
    ||| dealer.
    ||
    || Por que?
    ||
    || Online parts sites sell OEM, too.
    ||
    || Of course, delivery might take a week.
    ||
    ||| I'll also call the Honda automotive website on Monday that
    ||| someone provided, because the part isn't listed on their site. I'm
    ||| assuming that I can install a new one, but I can't find the old one.
    ||| I've looked all under the dash. The mechanic said you can pull
    ||| relays
    ||| all day and not get the right one.
    ||
    || Not this one. I'm an amateur, and there's only one relay (really, a
    || "relay assembly") that looks anything like the picture at
    || http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

    Not to mention it's behind the "cover"... it's left of the fusebox, outside
    of view. If you peek through the few holes in the plastic dash area, you can
    see it.

    || It is tucked up in there (on the driver's dash side, on the left,
    || maybe a few inches above knee height) on some Honda models though.

    And use your ears. That's how I found it easiest; switch your ignition from
    off to run (not start), then you hear a click................click. The
    source of the click is the main relay ;)
     
    tomb, May 16, 2004
    #17
  18. OS

    Jim Yanik Guest

    I found mine pretty easily,after looking at the
    http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm .
    website.

    I did remove the lower dash cowling for easier access.It wasn't too hard in
    my Integra.
     
    Jim Yanik, May 16, 2004
    #18
  19. OS

    Caroline Guest

    Likewise, I think I also removed some part of the left dash to get at the main
    relay, and this helped. But it still wasn't easy on my 91 Civic LX
     
    Caroline, May 16, 2004
    #19
  20. OS

    tomb Guest

    Caroline wrote:
    ||| I found mine pretty easily,after looking at the
    ||| http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm
    ||| . website.
    |||
    ||| I did remove the lower dash cowling for easier access.It wasn't too
    ||| hard in my Integra.
    ||
    || Likewise, I think I also removed some part of the left dash to get
    || at the main relay, and this helped. But it still wasn't easy on my
    || 91 Civic LX

    All I managed to remove was the coin holder (88 Civic LX). I couldn't figure
    out how to remove the lower dash cowling... or couldn't be bothered to to :)
     
    tomb, May 16, 2004
    #20
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