1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI

Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
common problems were at fault.

#1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
should.

#2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
immediately.

VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
clicking right along.

What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.

Many thanks for your help so far.

Peace!
Jack

 

Just for snorts and giggles, try swapping the bad cylinder spark plug
with one of the good ones, and see if the problem moves along with it.

Always check the simple stuff first...

Good Luck!

Erik

 

My guess would be a fouled injector, since the car has been unused a little
while. It would still click but not deliver the right amount of fuel.

The valves and anything else that would affect the "compression" part of the
engine operation formula (compression, fuel, ignition) is best tested with a
compression check. There is always a chance one of the valves is stuck open
and needs to be freed up. The Honda engines are not usually known for that,
though. Anyway, it is the part of the formula that has a definitive test -
the rest have "by the way"s.

Mike

 

I would also remove the front driver's side wheel, put the
front driver's side on a jackstand, remove the valve cover,
manually rotate (COUNTERclockwise, or you will lose timing
belt tension) the crankshaft, and watch the springs on the
suspect cylinder's valves. If any one spring is not moving
or is moving oddly, then you have made progress on your
diagnosis. Figure stuck valve or bent valve.

A picture of a valve that stuck from gunk buildup and some
chatter on this:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1806140

In the vein of keeping it simple, also try putting a bottle
of Chevron Techron (fuel system cleaner; available at
Autozone, WalMart, et al.) in the Accord's fuel tank next
time you fill it (per the bottle's directions). Run the
Accord to empty. Repeat. Not that this is going to clean up
crud on a stuck valve, but it might help.

Have you checked the timing?

I wonder whether an Italian tuneup would help here. It heats
the engine and has the RPM high. Put the Chevron Techron in
the tank. Drive the car up the steepest, longest hill you
can find at the highest speed allowed. Repeat a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_tuneup .
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/archive/index.php/t-32202.html

Ditto what Erik and Michael said.

 

I put a brand new plug into that cylinder right at the parts place and
it did not affect the problem at all. That was the first place I
thought to look because simple is usually the answer, usually. I'm
still hoping for simple some place else. That was also why I replaced
the wires right then and there too.

Does anyone happen to have a firing diagram from distributor to
cylinder for this car? Thanks

 

http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528005f3a5
(scroll down to see your Accord's diagram)

The shop manual linked at
http://ww1.honda.co.uk/car/owner/workshop.html may also be
helpful.

Using Yahoo to search the site honda-tech.com turns up a lot
of discussion on stuck valves in older engines.

 

I think I'd run a quick compression test next... if it comes out ok,
the injector will need some scrutiny. (The bad cylinder's distributor
cap electrode isn't tracked to ground is it? Look close, both inside and
out.)

If I recall correctly, the distributor can only go in one way on that
engine. Number one cylinder is the the one closest to the crank
pulley... again if I recall correctly, the drivers side.

The firing order is conventional for an inline 4 cylinder: 1 3 4 2. If
your not sure which direction the distributor turns, just eyeball
distributor shaft/rotor with the cap off while an assistant bumps the
starter for you. Don't get shocked...

I suspect you don't have a firing order issue... if you did, I think
you'd probably have two dead cylinders, that is if it ran all.

Erik

 

I inadvertently swapped a couple wires on a Volvo 4-cyl recently. It didn't
actually start but complained *a lot* when I tried.

Mike

 

In spite of the low tech approach, it is effective - at least according to
the Volvo gurus. The early 850 models were prone to valve sticking because
of excessively tight tolerances. Often the engines would refuse to start.
The solution was to be persistent in order to get it to start, then to warm
up the engine thoroughly and do the "Italian tuneup," spending about five
minutes at 50 mph in second gear. I never heard of it not working.

I have recently changed to using primarily top tier gasoline brands. Some of
the brands (like Conoco here in the Southwest) are as cheap as the
discounters and the advantages in reducing deposits in injectors, valves and
combustion chambers make a small premium worth it to me.

My son has also used Seafoam engine treatment
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUp.htm) and has been happy with the
results in terms of drivability. It is available at NAPA. A word of warning,
though - running this stuff through the intake produces enormous amounts of
white smoke for several minutes, even after you stop adding it.

Mike

 

The only doubt I have is that Tom and Ray of "Car Talk"
recently said carbon buildups just do not occur the way they
used to, because of fuel injection replacing carburetors.

ISTM an Italian Tuneup could not hurt anything, though. I
did one a few months ago on my 91 fuel injected Civic after
it failed NOX emissions. I did several other things,
including a new aftermarket catalytic converter too. One way
or another, it passed the next emissions test easily.

I am still on the fence as to whether the premium brands
today make dollars sense. It is said that all the new
gasoline requirements now ensure even the low priced brands
are very clean gas.

I thought of Sea Foam, too, having seen the (mostly very
young and kind of uh experiment inclined, boy style) people
at honda-tech.com mention it much. But I checked further
today and see many say using Sea Foam is risky. Speaking
only as someone not as experienced as Erik (I think this is
the old Erik with the great posts often) nor Michael, and
based strictly on reading and the word on the streets about
the dubiousness of engine cleaners like Sea Foam, I would
not try the Sea Foam just yet. There is lots that is easier
to eliminate, first, like a stuck or bent valve.

 

I've been lurking here for years, and may have posted a time or two, but
for the most part I'm a new poster here.

Erik

 

If it's literally only a time or two, then I beg your
pardon. It's a different Erik. Not to subtract from your
expertise.

 

Yes, literally only a time or two, sounds like there is/was another
poster named Erik.

Erik

 

:

See my reply in your original thread. Why you started a new one is beyond
me.

 

Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
last week.

The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
(that's a simple dry test).
The car is driving and handling well. It still has
it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
honey color.
I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.
I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?

The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.
It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
to work.
The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.


The ask for help.
So, what do you think? I have put every known home
remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
should be a total of 150psi.
I said that I would report back, and so this is it.
Thanks again guys for your help and information. It has been very
instructive.

Peace!
Jack

 

I think you have taken it about as far as you can without heroic measures
and it is working well enough. As far as the compression goes, I think you
have entered the "don't touch it - you'll break it" zone. I think you are
right; the compression is inadequate at idle but adequate when called on. At
that point my only concern would be for the catalytic temp (and cold idle HC
emissions) at idle, since it is being fed unburned fuel/air mixture.

Short exposure to the non-Honda PS fluid should be okay. I presume Honda
uses natural rubber seals and that is why standard fluids ruin them. In my
younger days I put standard DOT3 brake fluid in the Girling brake system of
my Lotus. About a month later I stepped on the brake to find it useless -
the bad fluid had attacked the master cylinder secondary seal first (it was
bathed on both sides by bad fluid) and then the primary seal. Probably about
the same story with Honda PS.

Mike

 

That's absolutely awful. /Minimum/ dry should be about 150.

It might be, but the additive package is the most important thing. Honda
says that use of non-Honda fluids will damage the PS system.

Note they say WILL, mot MAY.

The damage shows up over time as leaking seals; it does not happen
overnight.

At speed you've got the throttle partly open at high revs, so your
actual compression is higher.

Are you certain you're doing the compression test correctly?
1) engine fully-warmed up
2) remove ignition fuse
3) hold throttle wide open
4) make sure compression gauge is tight in spark plug hole
5) crank and read


What happens when you swap the suspect injector to a different cylinder?

What is/are the code/s stored? Might give a clue as to what's happenng
here.

I still think you've simply got an old, tired, worn-out engine.

Read the Check Engine light codes, and try swapping the injector to
another cylinder.

 

check the tank for dents first. if it has any, it could be an internal
baffle problem, not a float/sender problem.

believe it's silicone.

so it's working then. don't monkey about with it any more. engine
replacement is cheaper than repair in this kind of situation.

what is the code????

i say stop fixating on it and just keep driving. yes, it's low per the
book, but it still works. and if you'd never measured it, you'd never know.

bottom line: unless you want to spend a heap of time and money, simply
run it until it fails. then buy a cheapo jdm import engine for a few
hundred bucks and you can have it swapped in 1/5th the time it'll
otherwise take you to repair the original motor.

 

The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones. I was told that this may
have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. What
think ye?

Just to note, I can keep the PGMFI light from coming on if I run the
engine at high revs right from the driveway. I can take it about 15
miles before I encounter roads and places where I have to slow down
and it is when I begin driving in "in town" type situations that I get
the light. When I drive it sanely from the driveway, I get the PGMFI
light before I get to the first stop sign at the end of my block.

You have described the exact procedure I am using for checking the
compression. I understand that the compression is still woefully
low. I do wonder what caused it to jump the 30lbs though. Perhaps
one ring was stuck and another was damaged? When I swapped the
injector it had no effect, swapping the plug was the same. The plug
wires are new, OE. The plugs are new Champion\ for the moment until I
can get the proper NGK for the car. (If this is necessary)

I am not sure how else to check for stored codes, I have an OBDII
reader, but this car is pre OBD.

The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... Rolls Royce has gone
back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.

As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid. It was the shop that
aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. They assured me
that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid. I
will remember not to let them interfere with the fluids in my Jaguar.

I guess what we will do is to continue basic regular maintenance until
such time as the engine is unusable. To tell the truth, I am glad my
son learned how to shift on a car that we wouldn't cry over. We
still haven't put enough money into it to amount to a couple months
car payments yet.

Is there a link for JDM engines?

Thanks again for the help and advice!
Peace!
Jack

 

Those 6 tones are the seat belt reminder.

On that version of Accord, I believe the ECU is located under the driver's
seat. If you can access it, it will flash a series a lighted codes with
short and long blinks.